Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

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Shooshie
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Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by Shooshie »

Recently I started a thread about finding the proper cables and adapters for routing MOTU audio interface outputs to headphones for giving multiple headphone mixes to the various performers being recorded. I had made some half-hearted attempts at that in the past, but never really followed through with it, because it seemed like there were a lot of complications involved, and I rarely really needed to do that. So, I have an upcoming session with multiple players who could use personalized mixes for their monitoring, and I decided to tackle this problem head-on. It involved several stages.

First was the connection stage: cables and adapters. Getting from Male XLR ports in an 896mk3 to the inputs of headphone amps (or the headphones themselves if the resistance works out, as in earbuds) was a surprisingly difficult task using commercial products. It would be much easier to build your own cables, but I was determined to do it with commercial products, so you can click my link to find out where I ended up. (there are pictures later in the thread)

Next was the headphone stage: I needed a good headphone amp. After learning about the Behringer HA8000 (aka: the PowerPlay Pro-8) I decided to give it a try. This post is about that device and how it fits into this overall picture. First, some pictures:

Here's the HA8000 at Sweetwater:
Image


Here's a sample of the front panel:
Image

And the back:
Image

One can see that each section (8 separate amps) has both a discreet TRS input, and the ability to use the global Main Inputs, either 1 or 2, selected with a 2 position button. In addition, there is a mono button and a gain control, along with an output level meter for each of the 8 amps. So, each headphone can choose one of three sources, two global or one direct. The two global inputs each have gain controls on the left side of the front panel. Direct input for each amp is a TRS jack in the rear, for 8 total direct inputs. The global inputs are also in the back; more on that in a moment.

First the good stuff: The headphone amps are not bad. They're not great, either. They have a lot of noise at any volume beyond about the middle of their range, but that's awfully loud. One generally does not need for them to be that loud. Which brings up the fact that they are more than adequately powered. These will blow your ears off if you turn them up. Sound quality, on a scale of 1 to 10 (where 10 is the best possible sound) is about a 6. Better than average. When compared with the source itself, I can tell the difference, but it's not a big difference. But you must connect it properly or it can sound terrible.

The connections feel solid, as does the construction of the box. The rack ears are just L-brackets, but seem adequately secured to the box. It would take a lot of road wear to jar them loose. The gain knobs are digitally stepped, not analog, and all the buttons and knobs feel kind of cheap, but again, adequate. When the 2 buttons in each of the 8 amp sections are in depressed position, yellow or red lights come on to indicate that you've chosen input source #2 or mono, relatively, for each headphone. I've no real complaint about its quality, construction, or design. It feels like quality hardware. I don't have a metric with which to measure that empirically, so I'll go with feel and leave it there.

Now for the less-than-good, at least as far as my purposes go. The motive that triggered this whole investigation was to give each person a mix of their own to emphasize possibly their own sound, or maybe the sound of the rhythm section, or wherever the beat is. So that brings us to...
Stage 3 of this project, CueMix:The idea was to to use CueMix to provide that mix, delivered directly to each of the 8 discreet headphone amps in this single rack-space box. If you're recording live musicians playing together, and not overdubbing, this is a fine idea. But the problem emerges when you want to punch in or to record with pre-existing material, whether a click track or a rhythm section or even a piano or drum. Here's why: CueMix is set up to provide up to 8 discreet mixes of the live inputs. Each is assignable to its own mono output, or you can make 4 discreet stereo mixes assignable to their own stereo output pairs. CueMix is NOT designed to include sound from your host DAW in those mixes. So, the idea of mixing the current output from DP along with the live microphones won't work in CueMix. You'll have to do that in Digital Performer, monitoring through effects, not direct hardware playthrough.

So, let us say we take a feed from DP, and put it through the global inputs of the headphone amp. The global inputs distribute their source to all 8 headphones. Why not do that and blend in the Direct Input? Because the Behringer HA8000 is not designed to mix those inputs, but select between them. You have your choice of global 1, global2, or direct input; not some mix of any two of the above. Further, the selection of direct input happens when you plug a TRS cable into the TRS jack in the back. As with normalized patch bays, inserting the plug disengages the other input sources. The two global inputs cannot be mixed with each other, because there is a panel switch on the front which selects between them. (I think the design would be improved with at least a switch for the direct option, too, rather than the patch-bay approach, which requires you to get behind the box to plug in the direct input, or to unplug it if you want to return that channel to the global inputs.

The ideal would be to have a global input and a direct input, with a knob that mixed them to any degree from fully one or the other, or any wet combination of the two. With such an arrangement, you could output your current mix in Digital Performer directly from the Main Outs to the global input, and then add as much of the CueMix live mix as you wish. THAT would be the perfect setup, but it's not to be found in the HA8000.

It so happens that Behringer makes a box that fills that exact need. It's called the PRO-XL HA4700. I wish I'd figured this out before buying, but this would be more the ideal box for the particular setup I'm trying to create. It only can handle four headphones, but one could probably use splitters and satisfy pretty much everyone with just four mixes. Or you could get two HA4700s and connect the 2nd one to the XLR outputs of the first. Yes, it uses XLR inputs for the global input source, which greatly simplifies the whole cable/adapter issue. The individual direct inputs on the four headphone amps are still TRS stereo jacks, so you still need to have adapters and cables for the directs.

Lastly, let's talk about the global inputs on the HA8000. It has left/right inputs for each of the two global sources. Each of the two global inputs has a pair of TRS jacks, one marked for MONO input, and the other channel labeled "balanced." The idea, of course, is to run a balanced cable from each of the output channels from your Main Outs of your source, with XLR Female on one end and a TRS on the other. It must be properly wired in order to work, and in this case, "properly" means:
  • Sleeve to Pin 1 (ground)
    Tip to Pin 2
    Ring to Pin 3
The direct inputs are not balanced, but stereo:
  • Sleeve = Pin 1 (Common or Ground)
    Tip = Left
    Ring = Right
If you use all 8 outputs on an 896mk3, you’ll get four stereo headphone mixes, and you’ll need four cables that combine female XLR left & right into a single TRS stereo plug. You would still have the Main Outs (think of the 896 as having 10 analog outputs rather than 8 ) for the global mix to distribute to the other four headphone outputs.

So, after all this, I still don’t have exactly what I need. I need to be able to combine live inputs with one or more outputs from DP, emphasizing whatever live inputs I want over the background of the pre-recorded tracks. The HA8000 is an either-or proposition. It cannot mix inputs, only choose between them. It appears that the one I need is the Behringer HA4700. But for what it is, the HA8000 is a very nice device. Its only failing is that it cannot compensate for CueMix’s failings! Why MOTU did not design CueMix with a fader for an output from DP, I’ll never know, but I cannot find anything that suggests it is there, so it appears that MOTU did not think of that when they made CueMix.

Maybe I’ll snag the HA4700 before all this is done. Or maybe I’ll just monitor through effects, with low buffer, and create different emphasis for each of the outputs channelized from DP to the 896mk3.

I hope this isn't too rambling and dense to make sense of. The problem is that we're really talking about several stages of a process, each of which has its own challenges. When doing this, its easy to look at any of those stages and think "if only they'd done this or that, it would make this whole thing very easy." I thought that if I found the exact process and steps, I could simplify it for everyone else. Instead, I think I've complicated it. The other Behringer headphone amp might be the solution for anyone wanting to do this. I think that would greatly simplify it.

Shooshie
Last edited by Shooshie on Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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monkey man
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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by monkey man »

Pretty sure my HA4600 does what you need too, Shoosh, although the "blendable" ins may be mono only.

Just a thought:
Is it not possible to loop (physically) the main outs back into the interface and route the stereo mix to a (hopefully) spare pair (your "new" main out), whilst also routing that "mix layer" to each of the BarfRinger's individual monitor feeds? IOW, you'd be blending the h'phone mixes using CM rather than the knobs on the 'phone amp, but hey, that'd be better than nothing, right? You could set these feeds at unity (the mix) and still use the dedicated monitor-feed layer, which you'd keep "on top" or "active", to adjust the individual players' blends.

Obviously, there'd be additional AD/DA degradation on your main out feed, but as it's for monitoring purposes only, you may well be happy to live with that.

Hope you're OK, bud.

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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by mhschmieder »

In the low-budget category, A.R.T. has a well-respected multi-channel headphone amp, which I considered at one point (I haven't had a need for a long time now, as my RME Fireface UFX has two headphone jacks so I won't need more than that until the next time I do a drum session that includes ghost tracking of guitars/bass/vocals).

It had some limitations that I can't remember, and which might correspond with the gaps you're finding in your own unit, but it's easy to find the specs for the A.R.T. to suss it out.

For me, I decided to get the DACS unit if I ever end up doing another session requiring so many simultaneous headphone feeds. It's almost $800-$900 though. Maximum routing and capabilities, for sure.

Furman makes a couple of units as well, and they are considered to be very good audio quality. Their specs are a bit tricky, even when downloading the manuals. I find one of the units quite confusing, but am guessing it is oriented more towards conferencing and maybe even churches; two areas where I have no experience except as an end customer.

Given the quirky specs of the Furman units though, I'd suggest taking a look at them to see if either of them has the features you are looking for. That is, if they are still in production (it's been a couple of years since I did my thorough canvassing of the marketplace for headphone amps).
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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by HCMarkus »

Would this work?

Route your mix from DP to an Aux Out. Use this Aux Out as the input for 8 Mono (or 4 Stereo) DP Aux Tracks, each assigned to different output bundle corresponding to the 8 Mono (4 Stereo) outs on your 896, each to which you also assign a Cue Mix bus.
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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by monkey man »

Yup. That should work, Sir Markus.

I also thought of using an aux channel to mirror the main mix to a 2nd stereo out pair on the interface. This would save having to make a physical loop-back of the main outs. Shoosh could then use this output layer exclusively as the musicians' instrument inputs should be right there as well to bleed off into that mix "copy", which'll leave that output pair and mosey on down to the BarfRinger.

Can't see how it could be made any simpler than this... for now...

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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by monkey man »

After further thought:

My idea above would only provide one mix apart from the main 1-2 outs on the interface.

If the aux channel (in DP) is mirroring the main bus to a second output pair on the interface (which it would be), there's no reason I can see that 3 more channels of the same ilk could service the other available output pairs.

One could then provide 4 stereo mixes, from four layers of CM, for 4 of the 8 individual headphone modules whilst mixing the live inputs in to taste. Further to that, by panning the various ins either hard-left or right, you could create 8 mono monitor mixes for the BarfRinger. You'd probably want to pan both sides of each aux channel in DP to centre using Trim so that "nothing" is missing from the "base" mix appearing at each L / R physical output.

My brain's gonna melt if I keep this up. I finally think I've got that sorted, so I sure hope this is workable, 'Meister.

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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by monkey man »

HCMarkus wrote:Would this work?

Route your mix from DP to an Aux Out. Use this Aux Out as the input for 8 Mono (or 4 Stereo) DP Aux Tracks, each assigned to different output bundle corresponding to the 8 Mono (4 Stereo) outs on your 896, each to which you also assign a Cue Mix bus.
This is essentially it; I only now realised we were saying the same thing, Sir M.

I don't quite understand what you're saying in the bold-type bit; the CueMix live inputs are always there, available on every mix layer, the number of which (the latter) is determined by the # of output pairs.

Hmm... seems you're using the "assign buss" phrase to describe the "injection" of a CM input source to any of those mixes, so, again, we're sayin' the same thing.

Well done, mate.

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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by mikehalloran »

Anyone know the difference between the HA4600 and the HA4700? I can't find lit on the earlier unit to compare.

The reason I ask is that I have a new-in-box 4600. I bought it for a project then realized I needed more than four channels so, except to test that it works, it's only been out of the box once.
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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by monkey man »

Sorry I can't help Mike.

Just wanted to say it's funny that I too bought the 4600, tested it (just the h'phone outs, which were loud and "brittle" or "Hard" sounding), and left it covered in the rack as opposed to boxing it. Same thing, really.

I figured it'd be nice to have there should I ever need to record a bunch of musos at once. My gear has always been bought with a one-man band in mind, the BarfRinger being the only exception.

If you don't need it maybe you could sell it to Shoosh if he's interested.

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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by monkey man »

OK, I've managed to find the original manual, Mike.

There's no comparison or discussion of differences, not least because the 4600 went to market before the 4700. If there's anything you'd like me to look up for you 'though, please don't hesitate to ask.

For Shoosh:
Yeah bud, the manual confirms the function of the front-panel aux ins and the blend knob. It's only 4 channels, but could still be the ticket for you, given what you said about musos "sharing" 4x2 mixes amongst themselves. The headphone outs on the rear panel do indeed split the signal as it's heard from the front sockets.

The specs look better on paper than I'd have guessed. Ain't that always the way?

10Hz->100kHz +/-3dB.
>99dBu noise, unweighted, 22Hz->22kHz (>95dB @ +4dBu)
0.005% THD @ +4dBu, 1kHz, Gain 1 (Whatever that means)

Max output power +26dBm
Min output impedence 100 Ohm

That last figure might explain why your and my units seemed so damned loud. My 'phones are the Sennie HD-25s @ 70Ω. X'plains it in my case at any rate.

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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by mikehalloran »

My 'phones are Sony MDR V6 and MDR 7506. It takes very little to drive them into ear-splitting volume so I've never gotten into the noise range of my HA8000. I consider its sound quality to be outstandingly adequate. This is much better than most Behringer gear I have heard over the years.
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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by daniel.sneed »

My setup includes a mixing desk and I've had good results with Behringer Powerplay P1.
I own 3 of them now.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P1.aspx
Very handy when musicians ask for adjusting levels by themselves.
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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by monkey man »

mikehalloran wrote:I consider its sound quality to be outstandingly adequate. This is much better than most Behringer gear I have heard over the years.
I hear you, Mike.

I've got a V-Verb Pro I bought for monitoring FX only, and although I've yet to press it into use, I remember being impressed by its clarity and low-noise performance when I tested it. Seems at least some units in the product line are nothing to be sneezed at sound-quality wise.

One of the 'verbs in it had a "distance" (depth-placement) parameter that worked surprisingly well too. I remember wondering why all 'verb offerings didn't include this. Seemed like a no-brainer to me.

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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by HCMarkus »

daniel.sneed wrote:My setup includes a mixing desk and I've had good results with Behringer Powerplay P1.
I own 3 of them now.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P1.aspx
Very handy when musicians ask for adjusting levels by themselves.
Setting up monitor mixes that make everyone happy is not always a simple task, and these little guys allow us to offload the responsibility to at least a fair degree. Even better is this:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P16-M.aspx
I think there may be a few of these in my future.
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Re: Monitoring with Headphones, Behringer HA8000 Amp

Post by daniel.sneed »

HCMarkus wrote:
daniel.sneed wrote:My setup includes a mixing desk and I've had good results with Behringer Powerplay P1.
I own 3 of them now.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P1.aspx
Very handy when musicians ask for adjusting levels by themselves.
Setting up monitor mixes that make everyone happy is not always a simple task, and these little guys allow us to offload the responsibility to at least a fair degree. Even better is this:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/P16-M.aspx
I think there may be a few of these in my future.
Of course, Markus, P16 boxes are the next step on the *everyone happy* way.
I've thought about it, for I already own an X32-rack.
But P1 boxes just fit very well my actual studio needs, and at a very light expense.
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