Need Cables for Individual Headphone Monitoring in CueMix

[mikehalloran]

Ok, I don't do individual stereo headphone mixes.

I use one of these to offer individual mono mixes from my 828mkII when requested. Obviously, the cabling is easier. You can feed it individual stereo mixes, I believe but I never do.
It can also offer the same mix to all letting the individual set his/her own level.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HA8000

When I bought it, there was really nothing else as flexible. I was pleasantly surprised that it sounds good -- that wasn't really a requirement.

There is an XLR to 1/4" adapter that Markertek carries -- they sell them wired (unlike everyone else). I bought a bunch for a project years ago. You can use those with stereo Y adapter cables (TRS with TS-L and TS-R) to do exactly what you want. Use them on the TS ends.

[HCMarkus]

I roll my own Shoosh… always have. It is very easy, and you can use wire made for studio use (100% foil shield, thinner cross section) made to fit, keeping bulk behind the rack down.

http://www.rane.com/note110.html

You'd could make all the cables you need in one evening. Just watch polarity and keep a cable tester or VOM handy and test as you go.

[Shooshie]

Ok, I don't do individual stereo headphone mixes.

I use one of these to offer individual mono mixes from my 828mkII when requested. Obviously, the cabling is easier. You can feed it individual stereo mixes, I believe but I never do.
It can also offer the same mix to all letting the individual set his/her own level.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HA8000

When I bought it, there was really nothing else as flexible. I was pleasantly surprised that it sounds good -- that wasn't really a requirement.

There is an XLR to 1/4" adapter that Markertek carries -- they sell them wired (unlike everyone else). I bought a bunch for a project years ago. You can use those with stereo Y adapter cables (TRS with TS-L and TS-R) to do exactly what you want. Use them on the TS ends.

I have a four channel headphone mixer, and I was thinking about getting this very one, actually. I almost bought that Behringer yesterday, but decided to hold off until I get this thing figured out.

I can get from dual XLR channels to TRS now, but with a string of adapters on each one. And I have more on the way. But I was just hoping to find a single-object solution. The fewer gaps and pressure connections, the better the signal, so I'd think. And maybe I'll end up soldering some. I'm actually not bad with an iron, but I haven't done it in a long time, and was hoping to avoid that.

I'm just surprised that the options don't exist! But I DID find it in ⅛" TRS. You get a lot more results when you use the magic words: iPhone or iPad. And that brings up something I've found very interesting: it seems the ⅛" mini is the new quarter inch jack. You can find just about anything for ⅛". You'd think they'd at least make the same for ¼" mono and TRS stereo, but they don't. You can always slip on a quarter-inch condom for those mini plugs, but there's another adapter in the mix.

Do you think quarter-inch is going the way of magnetic tape? Maybe it's time, but I want to see it on the audio interfaces before I divest my hoards of quarter-inch adapters and cables.

I may get that Behringer. The price is sure right. Then again, I'm not sure it's worth it for one potential project. Maybe there will be more down the line, but so far I've never exceeded my 4 phone amp's capacity. The upcoming project may need 8 or more headphones, but maybe I should just use a splitter for most of them, and maybe give 3 or 4 a unique mix. I just don't want the day to come, and be sitting there fumbling with adapters.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I roll my own Shoosh… always have. It is very easy, and you can use wire made for studio use (100% foil shield, thinner cross section) made to fit, keeping bulk behind the rack down.

http://www.rane.com/note110.html

You'd could make all the cables you need in one evening. Just watch polarity and keep a cable tester or VOM handy and test as you go.

WOW! That's a great link. Thanks!

[Shooshie]

After all this, I have a few conclusions:
1) The "Individual and Unique Headphone Mixes" that you can provide to all your recording artists, simultaneously, so each can hear it the way they want to hear it, are a little premature and undeveloped. Without a way to get the mix to a headphone, it's not really all that useful, is it? Making it happen looks like it would be as easy as going to Sweetwater, Amazon, or another such place and just filling up your shopping cart, then waiting for the little brown truck to arrive. I spent a couple days doing almost nothing else, and I really NEVER found exactly what I was looking for. You can get your stereo audio channels to the headphone amps, but it's going to cost you, and you'll double your inventory of small adapters and cables.

2) If MOTU were really serious about this, they could provide a breakout box for headphone jacks to be configured in CueMix. It would be FAR, FAR easier, and it might make those CueMix mix pages really useful.

3) "Rolling your own" cables and connectors is the way to go. I could have made all the cables I want in the time I spent searching for specific features over two days. The first box of stuff that I bought arrived today, and the quality just ain't what I'd hoped for. The ones by Planet Waves are excellent. The rest? Potluck. Some were falling apart; I just screwed them back together. Even Pyle Audio was a pyle of crap. I have a great cable tester from Pyle; I thought their cables would be at least technically flawless. HC Markus's idea has hit home. The next time I need a bunch of cables and adapters — like when I install my next 48 channel patch bay (I've already got two) — I'm going to get the bulk stuff and make them myself. The article from the Rane Corporation convinced me beyond any shadow of doubt: you've got to take responsibility for ground loops.

I miss Radio Shack, and I can't believe I'm saying that. It was pretty useless store to me, but you could always depend on it having a wall of every kind of adapter you could imagine. My first few rounds of adapters came from there, back in the 70s and 80s. 90% of them are still as good as new.

Shooshie

[Luke]

Would any of these JamHubs have covered it Shooshie?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufac ... hide_info=

[Shooshie]

Would any of these JamHubs have covered it Shooshie?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufac ... hide_info=

Geez Mareez! It's going to take a while to wrap my head around that. I'll look in more depth tomorrow.

Shoosh

[Luke]

Would any of these JamHubs have covered it Shooshie?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufac ... hide_info=

Geez Mareez! It's going to take a while to wrap my head around that. I'll look in more depth tomorrow.

Shoosh

Sorry brother. I didn't aim to compound things. Just thought this looked easy peasy. Looking forward to your thoughts.

[Shooshie]

I spent some time this morning listening to the videos, reading the specs, and getting some idea of what JamHubs are all about. It's an impressive product! I'm not sure it is something I could use, but if I had a band that was practicing a lot, I'd definitely want to use it. Great idea, and something I wish had been around 40 years ago!

I have one question that would determine how useful it might be to those of us here: when connecting it to the computer via USB, how much of its functionality is preserved for input and manipulation with in DP?
1) Do we see each independent track, which we can record separately in DP?
2) Does it retain the panning information?
3) Do we hear the JamHub's FX in our tracks in DP?
4) Can we override that? That is, can we leave the FX for the musicians to hear as they play with JamHub, but can we get a clean sound into DP's tracks?

JamHub duplicates many functions you'd normally do in DP, which makes it superb for a stand-alone rehearsal/recording device. The question for us DP users is whether JamHub can be a useful interface for DP, or does it present its output "pre-packaged, pre-mixed" for a DAW simply to record as-is.

Interesting device!

Shooshie

[TinenTech]

It's less hassle to use ADAT optical outs. Look for an Alesis AI-3, which was a single-space D/A converter with 8 1/4 outs. Black Lion has a mod for these Aphex makes a similar unit. We solve the problem of the amps by going into an Aviom system after that, but have also used a bunch of small Aphex headphone amps on remotes. Old adats can serve the purpose too, if they can be locked into input mode.

Looks like MOTU had your problem in mind when they made the new AVB headphone interface?

[Phil O]

Shoosh, if I'm reading this right, it sounds like you're trying to drive headphones with line level signals. Is that correct? If so, it's not the way to go. You really need to be using headphone amps which mostly have either 1/4 inch or XLR inputs.

The problem with most headphone amps is they have a single input with multiple outs, so everyone gets the same mix, but individually adjustable levels. If you want truly individual mixes then you'll need a unit that has 4 independent amps, or 4 independent units. The HA8000 that Mike suggested would get you halfway there. It has 2 independent inputs. So you'd need 2. I don't know of any 4 channel units at a budget price so you'll probably have to spend a few bucks to get where you want to be.

BTW, I have two of the HA4700s. They sound quite good for the price. I bought them back when they were just under $100 each. The HA8000 wasn't available at the time. I know some folks have a problem with Behringer, but those HA4700s really are a great bang for the buck.

Regarding connections, the amps I use have mono inputs (L and R), so I go from my board to headphone amp with simple cables. L out to L in, R out to R in. No special adapters needed.

Phil

[Shooshie]

Shoosh, if I'm reading this right, it sounds like you're trying to drive headphones with line level signals. Is that correct? If so, it's not the way to go. You really need to be using headphone amps which mostly have either 1/4 inch or XLR inputs.

The problem with most headphone amps is they have a single input with multiple outs, so everyone gets the same mix, but individually adjustable levels. If you want truly individual mixes then you'll need a unit that has 4 independent amps, or 4 independent units. The HA8000 that Mike suggested would get you halfway there. It has 2 independent inputs. So you'd need 2. I don't know of any 4 channel units at a budget price so you'll probably have to spend a few bucks to get where you want to be.

BTW, I have two of the HA4700s. They sound quite good for the price. I bought them back when they were just under $100 each. The HA8000 wasn't available at the time. I know some folks have a problem with Behringer, but those HA4700s really are a great bang for the buck.

Regarding connections, the amps I use have mono inputs (L and R), so I go from my board to headphone amp with simple cables. L out to L in, R out to R in. No special adapters needed.

Phil

I have headphone amps, Phil, but they're really cheap. I need something like the HA8000. Getting L&R channels into a device like that, with a separate stereo pair for each unique headphone mix, requires going from two XLR male outputs (on the MOTU box) to a ¼" stereo female jack on the HA8000, one for each separate headphone amp.

Specifically, that requires a cable that begins with a split pair of XLR female plugs, joining together in a two-channel cable that terminates in a ¼" male stereo plug.

To make this happen without a specially-made cable requires a string of adapters embarrassingly long. What I was looking for was a single cable with the proper components on each end, no adapters required. What I had were collections of adapters that could get from anywhere to anywhere, but through arcane and lengthy paths.

I set out to find a single cable with all the components required. Instead, I found a number of solutions, but they all terminated in ⅛" MINI stereo male plugs, not ¼". They required one more adapter to get to the necessary ¼" stereo connector. Still, that beats 9 or 10 adapters strung together.

In the following picture (linked below), you will see 10 cable/adapter combos that all do the same thing, except that a few go to male XLR instead of female, but that's because the rest of my female XLR to ¼" adapters are in use right now, and I couldn't very well pull them out of service to take a picture. In one example (bottom right), the combo uses 9 adapters. Some use only 1 adapter. You will see Planet Waves, Hosa, and a couple other brands of cables and/or adapters. The Planet Waves are absolutely the best, by an order of magnitude, though I can't fault the Hosa or other connectors for any particular reason.

Click Picture to see full-size image:


Anyway, now I have what I need, though I'm still surprised that it's impossible to buy a cable that connects from dual XLR female to quarter-inch stereo male without using a MINI-to-¼" adapter.

Shooshie

[Phil O]

I have headphone amps, Phil, but I need something like the HA8000. Getting L&R channels into a device like that, with a separate stereo pair for each unique headphone mix, requires going from two XLR male outputs (on the MOTU box) to a ¼" stereo female jack on the HA8000, one for each separate headphone amp.

Aha! I misread your early posts. I thought you were trying to drive your headphones directly from your MOTU box. I also didn't realize the HA8000 had individual inputs, as my HA4700s do not. I see what you're saying now. I humbly apologize for my ignorance.

Gotta run now, but I have some ideas on this. I will get back to you.

Phil

[Phil O]

Ok, so here's the problem as I see it. The XLR outputs on your MOTU unit are most likely differential (i.e., balanced), so each out has a GND, +, and -, for a total of 5 connections for stereo (GND common to both):

1) GND
2) + Left
3) - Left
4) + Right
5) - Right

The TRS input on the HA8000 has 2 single ended (i.e., unbalanced) signals, for a total of 3 connections:

1) GND
2) Left
3) Right

To connect to the HA8000 you need to short the (-) on each output to GND, making a total of three connections:
1) GND/- Left/- Right
2) + Left
3) + Right

I don't know if the 2 female-to-TRS mini is configured this way or not. If it is, you could cut off the mini and solder on a 1/4 inch TRS, but you'd need to check the internal connections first. Unfortunately, your best option is to make the cables yourself or have them made for you. Markertek will custom build for you, but I don't know what they charge.

Note: Those numbers are NOT pin numbers.

Good luck with this Shoosh. I understand your frustration.
Phil

[Shooshie]

Speaking of adapters and cables, I would be lost without this device:

Click Picture to go to page at Amazon.com:


There are probably better ones out there; I wouldn't know, but this one serves my purposes. It's not the most intuitive tester I've ever used, but considering the extent of what it does, I don't think that's a valid concern. Cable testing is not always intuitive, or rather it requires a lot of intuition to understand what's really happening. What you need is a device that shows you exactly how the pins are connected from input to output. Sometimes that can be a real mess.

It's possible to put together adapters that essentially create short circuits, especially when going from stereo to mono plugs. Also, I've often found adapters that get the right and left channels switched, or the Pin and Ring connections switched. Without testing this, you'd assume they were marked correctly, and you'd wonder where the heck your channels got reversed. The tester pays for itself in aggravation saved, if not in sensitive circuits not fried. Of course, most cables and adapters are correctly marked, but sometimes I have to sand off the existing markings and correct them with my own. Many are not marked at all. I mark them so that I don't have to keep testing to find out if it's mono or stereo, left or right, tip, or ring.

One thing that these adapters have in common with all the rest of my adapters and cables is that they are correctly marked, thanks to the tester above:



Adapters that are troublesome usually get tossed in the recycle bin. One nice feature of this tester is that it shows intermittent connection problems. Loose connections, wires that short when bent, and so forth will activate the intermittent lights, alerting you that you either need to solder, tighten or throw it out. I've thinned out a lot of my 35 year old adapters.