Whiplash (The Movie)

[BKK-OZ]

Thoughtful post as always Shooshie.

Just to be clear, I never suggested that real talent just 'happens' - that wasn't part of my post.

I think you are dead wrong about the Beatles. Sure, Martin was a contributor, but John and Paul would have done just as well with Kit Lambert, Joe Meek, Phil Spector! or any other of 100 competent producers. Without John and Paul, I doubt very much we would know who Martin was.

And yes, I know this is how things are, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, accept it, or think that it is the best way to do things.

And then you have this:
“Musicians tell me, if what I’m doing is right, they should never have gone to school.”
- Ornette Coleman

[Phil O]

A little over a year ago I got a job with a local band. It's nothing special but it's a working band - lots of work. I guess in today's economy that's special. Anyway, I'm not a competitive person by nature but there were a lot of drummers better than me who wanted this job. However, I had the advantage of knowing the job was opening up 2 months prior to auditions. So, I practiced my ass off for two months. It was only through recognition of my own weaknesses and lack of competitiveness that drove me to this. I got the job, still have the job and was one of the best decisions of my life. We're working our asses off (already booked into 2016). I think sometimes a reality check is good for me.

Phil

[Shooshie]

Thoughtful post as always Shooshie.

Just to be clear, I never suggested that real talent just 'happens' - that wasn't part of my post.

I think you are dead wrong about the Beatles. Sure, Martin was a contributor, but John and Paul would have done just as well with Kit Lambert, Joe Meek, Phil Spector! or any other of 100 competent producers. Without John and Paul, I doubt very much we would know who Martin was.

And yes, I know this is how things are, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, accept it, or think that it is the best way to do things.

And then you have this:
“Musicians tell me, if what I’m doing is right, they should never have gone to school.”
- Ornette Coleman

Well, Ornette Coleman is Ornette Coleman. There are lots of "rights." I love Ornette, but I don't listen to him all the time.

Some of the most sublime music ever created are the Partitas and Sonatas for Solo Violin, and the Suites for Solo Cello, by JS Bach. I've been listening to them and playing them for over 35 years, and every time I play them I learn something else about the world, almost like a religious experience. I didn't actually learn those in school, but I couldn't have learned them without the training I got in school. That's also right.

I also love the old cowboy songs, bluegrass, minstrel songs, American folk songs (Shenandoah still brings tears when done right), and then there's classical — a whole world of musical vocabulary that informed everyone who plays music in any western style today, including jazz. Music philosophy doesn't begin or end with Ornette, but he certainly makes a valid contribution.

The world of players is filled with tension between those who studied formally and those who didn't. It's easy to hear the ones who studied a little too hard, narrow mindedly, and missed the entire point. It's also easy to hear the ones that are 99% jive. But those who have kept their minds open to a variety of possibilities have found that everything they play (in every style they play) is informed by everything they come in contact with. It just gets deeper and deeper.

Oh, and if you think I'm wrong about the Beatles, you didn't understand what I said, or maybe I wasn't clear, because it's not wrong. George Martin contributed, often called the 5th Beatle, and part of their sound was his. Had it been any other producer, they probably would have been at least as successful, but they would have sounded a little different. Some albums may never have been created, but others that do not exist would have been. The point was that George's contribution was the technical stuff, the learned stuff, that Paul and John simply did not know. They knew the sound they wanted, and maybe George even showed them some new ones that they wanted and used. Someone had to write parts for horns, strings, and winds; that was George.

In other words, the guys with the learning are often the support people for the guys who do it by ear. Given time and patience, someone talented like John Lennon or Paul Simon can convey what he wants, down to the note, of each player, especially if he surrounds himself with talented people. But make no mistake about it; things go well when there's a mix of people with the formal education to round out the group.

Also, just because someone gets a formal education doesn't mean they give up their ears. Done correctly, the formal education just helps get the music from the ear to the page. It may also help get one out of harmonic binds, when one has taken a wrong turn somewhere, or it may actually offer a larger palette for the ear to work with. I grew up on I, IV, V. Then I heard Brazilian music and knew that I wanted that, but I didn't know what it was. Those were 9th, b9th, 13th, and other such chords. They're just names, but when you know them they mean something, and you know how and where to use them. I'm always looking for ways to convey the music to other players so they know and understand the harmony and style. Names help. Sometimes you see a string of odd chords listed, then you figure it out and realize that it's just a chromatic path between two chords, one note at a time. But once you've seen it, you understand what it's going to do the next time you see it. It's just another way of writing it besides spelling out each chord with notes, leaving you free to choose the voicing, the registers, the bass, and style that you're going to want to play it.

I've not engaged in this particular kind of dialog very often, because I feel like it makes people defensive. There's no reason to be. There's really only one reason to be in music, and that's because your life just won't let you not be. You have to do it. If conservatory is your style, that's great. If the school of hard knocks is your training, that's great, too. It's not like either group does it for the money. I've done well in music, but that was mostly luck and a little planning. Any number of talented people could have done as well with the same circumstances. The school was incidental. It was a place to bide my time while I was practicing and learning things. I don't regret learning theory, music history, composition, and all the things they teach you, but those things didn't make me a good player. Practice did, along with listening to all the great players I could go hear or get recordings of, and being open to all kinds of music. But the thing that taught me more than ANYTHING else was defying the professors, and just getting out, lining up concerts, and playing them. Playing music with other people before an audience is not only the most amazing experience, it's the most amazing way to learn.

Sorry I write so much; it's hard to stop once I get going!
Shoosh

[BKK-OZ]

I agree that it is not learned vs self-taught, that was not my point. I think people come to music in many, equally valid ways, and collaborations between people with different backgrounds/experiences can be sublime. Nothing wrong with formal education. Also nothing wrong with informal education.

It is the competitive aspect of much of our current culture that I abhor.

Yes, I know that the world is competitive (even Lennon and McCartney were competitive and that drove much of their success) but I object and reject the industrialisation of music competition, the 'keeping score' aspect. This, of course, is not new, but I reckon it is more pronounced in recent times, and smug pricks like Cowell sitting in judgement really get my blood boiling - their self-conviction that they are valid arbiters of 'the good' just makes me want to puke.

And yes Martin helped the Beatles create the sounds that they did, and he was a great collaborator for them, but he was a a supporting piece, and followed their lead, not the other way 'round. There were many 5th Beatles, and all of them helped, but it was the.two main guys that were irreplaceable. And they failed their Decca audition.

[Shooshie]

This, of course, is not new, but I reckon it is more pronounced in recent times, and smug pricks like Cowell sitting in judgement really get my blood boiling - their self-conviction that they are valid arbiters of 'the good' just makes me want to puke.

Cowell knows about sales, and almost nothing about music. He's not a musician. He's a salesman. A marketeer. The act he portrayed on American Idol was unfortunate in that many thought that was the thing to emulate, and it requires no credentials to do so. But music will survive the Cowell wannabes, and however many billions he made, he didn't actually contribute one iota to music itself. He merely figured out where to stand so that the money would fall on HIM, and used his acerbic tongue to protect his territory.

The whole record industry has always sickened me, where the management makes millions while the artists barely got paid, or ended up OWING them for distribution and marketing. It was a robber's system, any way you look at it. But that's capitalism, not music.

Shooshie

[BKK-OZ]

Interesting article I came across today: https://theconversation.com/music-teach ... cars-37786

What I have seen, overwhelmingly, from having gone through an elite musical training, working as a professional musician, and also from a large amount of information disclosed privately to me, is a systematic pattern of domination, cruelty, dehumanisation, bullying and emotional manipulation from unscrupulous musicians in positions of unchecked power, of which sexual abuse is one of several manifestations

[SixStringGeek]

But the #1 reason for experiencing the competition is this: you see your place in the world of music. Those people aren't going away when you leave school for the real world. They'll always be at your auditions, gigs, faculty jobs, and so forth. If you don't master your playing as they do, they will always surpass you. Nobody has to tell you where you rank. You know. But you can change it with practice and attitude. You learn to beat the mf's at whatever is put in front of you.

And nobody ever has to tell you good job, bad job, or anything else. You'll find the way, because you KNOW. But if you go to school where there is little competition except for some music-ed majors who happen to be mediocre players, you'll think you're excelling, but in fact you've developed false confidence. When you encounter people who've been where the competition is great, you'll get crushed.

It's that simple. There's no place for the Fletchers of the world. They're psychopaths, and don't deserve to be in front of students. But students who know their own skill should never feel challenged by such idiots. Just watch them as you would a thunderstorm, even laugh at them. (beware their fists) You know your place. They don't, but you can show them.

Shooshie

Hey Shoosh - I've been enjoying an Amazon Original TV series (free if you have prime) called Mozart in the Jungle that is primarily about a young oboist trying to make it into the NY Symphony. I blew through the entire season in about a week and found it a lot of fun.

[Shooshie]

Hey Shoosh - I've been enjoying an Amazon Original TV series (free if you have prime) called Mozart in the Jungle that is primarily about a young oboist trying to make it into the NY Symphony. I blew through the entire season in about a week and found it a lot of fun.

OH, man... that sounds like fun! My wife and I always have some series going, so we'll definitely give this one a watch. Thanks!

Shoosh

[BKK-OZ]

Timely, funny/sad news story:
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio ... MP=ema_632

• Two judges on New Zealand’s X Factor have been fired for “bullying” a contestant live on air after a diatribe that makes Simon Cowell look encouraging.

[mhschmieder]

My own personal (and very current) experience in jazz is that every gig, and every rehearsal, is a new audition. You are expendable, no matter how dependable.

It's kind of funny, given how low the pay is compared to other genres (and I've been there). The lower you are on the totem pole, the more brutal the fight for the scraps.

I think the classical world is mostly unionized, so probably isn't as vulnerable, except that in many ways they are in an even tougher position and are always subject to someone "challenging" them for their "seat". Been there too. I even threw an audition years ago to someone who "needed" it more than I did.

[mikehalloran]

I finally saw the movie today at a bargain cinema in Cupertino with a very good sound system (yes!).

There were a few false notes. I've never heard of anyone that bad at a school who got away with it as long as that guy had. Most of the leaders who, as the joke puts it, use their personalities as birth control usually aren't that great as musicians. There are exceptions, of course.

Otherwise, I enjoyed the film, as over the top as it was. It does make me miss hard-core, tight as a drum big band jazz.

I certainly know the bleeding fingers but as a bassist. I learned to wear gloves when I played drums and I was never played at that level.

I've never heard unamplified basses sound that good. Ever. Just sayin'...

[James Steele]

It does make me miss hard-core, tight as a drum big band jazz.

Ditto. If anything, maybe it will expose people to that music. I have to say, I really didn't know much about that music, nor was I familiar with the piece "Caravan" which featured prominently in the film, but I really found myself feeling pumped up and getting into the music. Big band was sort of the "rock and roll" of its day, was it not?

[Shooshie]

It does make me miss hard-core, tight as a drum big band jazz.

Ditto. If anything, maybe it will expose people to that music. I have to say, I really didn't know much about that music, nor was I familiar with the piece "Caravan" which featured prominently in the film, but I really found myself feeling pumped up and getting into the music. Big band was sort of the "rock and roll" of its day, was it not?

My first exposure to Caravan was sight reading it on a New Years Eve gig, and that was a LONG time ago. It later became one of my favorite jazz tunes, especially among instrumental tunes. But my all-time favorite version of it was an early version by the Mills Brothers. A later version (when the dad had taken over as bass after the death of the son who originally sang bass) was also very good. They just managed this great rhythm that was "tight as a drum" throughout.

People speak of jazz and classical as if they are polar opposites, but I find them very similar in most respects. They each follow forms that are more complex than pop, they each expect the listener to bring some taste and education to the listening table in order to get the most out of the experience, they each require extreme precision and high degrees of technique and intonation. They require extreme mastery of styles, and advancement in either is truly merit-based. Of course, as a conservatory field of study, classical has been around hundreds of years, and jazz is just over a half-century in the schools, but where they meet in schools like North Texas the sharing of ideas and techniques has immensely strengthened both sides.

I really don't understand why they aren't more popular than they are. I made a lot of my living in pop music and rock and roll, but it always felt like a day job to support my real loves: classical and jazz. Of course, Classical was my primary field, and jazz was just a hobby to me, but both gave me the tools to do anything in music.

I agree with Mike that most of the really nasty directors were prime candidates for the musical equivalent of Darwin Awards, but the private teachers are another story. Some private teachers are extreme sociopaths who make sure their students don't surpass them by teaching them misinformation and doing extreme mind games on them. I took lessons from one such professor who is famous in the saxophone world, but always seemed hell-bent on eliminating his competition using anything at his disposal, including slander and defamation. He was one of the reasons I decided to teach myself, though I had to take lessons anyway as part of my major (not from him). Those guys DO exist, and some maintain longevity in spite of their nastiness.

Shoosh

[Gravity Jim]

Jazz and classical aren't more popular because people like songs, and dislike overblown displays of technical prowess. You can't sing along to The Mel Lewis Jazz Orchestra.

[Shooshie]

Jazz and classical aren't more popular because people like songs, and dislike overblown displays of technical prowess. You can't sing along to The Mel Lewis Jazz Orchestra.

People like dancing and skating, too, yet they are glued to the Olympic gymnastics and skating events every four years. No, I think it's more about marketing and fast bucks. You can't groom a new concert pianist for stardom in six weeks, but you can create divas in that time with media blitzes, while training moderately talented girls with great boobs or butts to go out and do a few routines with a lot of backup music. In other words, pop music is production-heavy by definition.

There's plenty of classical music you can hum or sing the next day. I just saw La Boheme at the Dallas Opera last Wednesday night (it was fantastic), and those tunes have been spinning in my head ever since, emerging a few times from my mouth while washing dishes and such. And jazz? Don't tell me you can't sing the American Songbook!

Fact is, there's a lot of pop music that I can't sing, no matter how hard I try, because it's Rap, and not really sung. Rap is about pyrotechnical rhyming improvisation, and it's been huge for 30 years.

I think Classical and Jazz are largely ignored because they are old. There's just not as much money to be made when the royalties go to the estate of someone dead for 50 years, or it's in the public domain. Pop is calculated for the biggest buck for the bang. It's all about the money. And that's what marketing is for. The biggest return on the marketing dollar goes to those who own ALL the rights. You can't own Beethoven or Bach.

It comes down to music education, too. People are taught that music is for musicians, and that regular people can't really do it. That gets reinforced by karaoke, where most people humiliate themselves trying to sound like a produced record, with nothing more than a cheap mic and a boombox. That's a tragedy. Music is an essential part of brain development. Musicians are literally smarter, because they develop exponentially more connections in the neurons and corpus callosum, a fact verified by brain surgeon Oliver Sacks. To deprive young people the opportunity to develop their minds further with music is not just tragic, but criminal, and yet marketing tells us that musicians are a special breed of human, and few can actually do it. A hundred years ago, if you herd about a song you liked, you went down and bought it... but it was on paper. You then took it to the piano and learned to play it. I've done that all my life. I didn't listen so much to music as play it., not hesitating to arrange ensembles, improvise pop or jazz at the pianos, or learn complex classical works on a variety of instruments. The world would be a better place if even 10% of the people did something like this.

I'll stop there, because it's a story without end, and it's bound to be controversial, but I've seen plenty of evidence for what I'm talking about. When I say I don't know why classical and jazz are not more popular, I really DO know, essentially, but it's more that I'm in constant awe of this machine that has pre-empted music for the people and turned it into something that massively profits so few, while essentially distracting the masses from the fact that they aren't really getting to participate.

Shooshie