Need a chord name...

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stubbsonic
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Re: Need a chord name...

Post by stubbsonic »

You can think of the combination of Fs & Cs in the low end as functioning like a F pedal, but enhanced as a drone of an open 5th in the bass. C is after all the 2nd overtone of F.

It seems like this chord is pretty "3-D".

If you want to get at its "essence" you can try the simplifications and see which one touches the spot (scratches the itch).

F dim
F dim/C
E
E7 or E+7
C aug
Fm-maj7, or Fm6
D half-dim

I find that several of these work for me as being representative without sounding "wrong".
But we aren't really trying to "get at the truth" per se. It's easy to suss out what notes are included. It's also pretty easy to get a feel for the quality of tension & mystery of that moment.

What isn't easy, in this case, is whether you can capture the essential notes and chord quality in a single chord symbol and have the feeling that you've informed the person who is reading your chord symbol about what are the most "important" notes. And, perhaps, being able to suggest as many of the added notes, simply by choosing the right basic chord.

I agree this stuff is kind of fascinating.

Though I think of myself as being somewhat experienced in the world of harmony, I think of the functions of diminished and augmented chords as being a murky area for me.
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gavspen
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Re: Need a chord name...

Post by gavspen »

Shooshie, I think the clip I'm looking at is the opening of the film (that's what it says, though there are no titles) but I'm not sure how you arrive at any kind of D/C chord, since I certainly do hear the F-C drone, with the F as the low note (but I dont hear timps anymore at that point).

The music in the book I have (signed by Richard Rogers...sorry, couldnt resist :wink: ) has the right hand playing a simple F (addG) while the left hand does the old 10ths thing, F-C-A-C, etc. Then on "Mu-sic" the left hand changes to F-C-Ab-C while the right just plays B-E. The symbols, respectively, are "F" (ok), and "E" (haha..with F-C in the bass? I dont think so).

It's not really an E aug/F, since I think that implies that the "C" is voiced higher than it is. I thought for minute that F dim (add E) might get the message across, but that leaves out the C altogether, which as you point out, is a key element. E/F is OK too, but once again, no C anywhere.

Maybe it's just one of those polytonal moments that just has to be written down and cant be spelled with complete accuracy (although some of the suggestions come close). I mean, how would you spell "that chord" in The Rite Of Spring" :wink:
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Shooshie
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Re: Need a chord name...

Post by Shooshie »

I think it's an orchestral thing. When they write piano reductions, they don't attempt that, because few players would get the C subtle enough to create that exotic rolling effect.

Also, I was wrong about the D/C root/pedal. That was before I actually went back and listened to it. I was just extemporizing. After listening, I heard F-C in the timpani, and realized it was a different chord than I originally thought.

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BobK
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Re: Need a chord name...

Post by BobK »

Late to the party, but here's my take:

E/F could work, but if you think of the E chord as coming from the E major scale, then it wouldn't account for the descending line the accompaniment plays after the word 'music' (E-D-C-B), because of the D natural and C natural in that line.

F diminished could work, but the F diminished scale (whole step - half step) also lacks the note C.

However, E/F would work if you think of the E chord coming from the Phrygian Dominant (aka Altered Phrygian or Spanish Phrygian) scale (5th mode of harmonic minor scale), which includes C natural.

Here's Wikipedia's page on that scale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_dominant_scale

The article says this scale is common in Middle Eastern, some Eastern European, and Flamenco music. I'm just speculating, but it seems conceivable that Richard Rodgers could have known about this scale, perhaps through Jewish music (where it's called the Freygish scale or mode).
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Shooshie
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Re: Need a chord name...

Post by Shooshie »

Thanks guys! I never thought this would be such a difficult chord to name. As Stubbsonic said, it's easy to suss-out the notes in the chord, but trying to find a functional name that works with those notes is another thing altogether, and maybe it's an exercise in futility. Once you get 3 or 4 working functional interpretations, what's the point of trying to pin it down? The reason it's such a beautiful chord is because it's ambiguous and throws your ear's expectations for a loop. It's exotic. Lush.

Still, it's fun to speculate on it. The chord I was imagining in my head when I started this thread was close, but it didn't account for the F and C roll in the pedal which I heard when I actually listened to it. When you've got F, C, E, F, Ab, B, E, along with a run in the harp consisting of all those plus D, which plows through it and further complicates things, it covers a lot of possibilities, as stubbsonic delineated. And yet it sounds so simple and natural.

That Phrygian Dominant might work, BobK, but I question whether I'd use that as a chord name on a keyboard part. Thinking of how it sounds, though, I'd say it alludes to a Moorish/Spanish scale, which is what gives it that exotic moment, as though there's more in those hills than I/IV/V.

Well, thanks again, everyone. It's been very interesting. I figured if I had to ask, it probably was going to get that way!

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David Polich
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Re: Need a chord name...

Post by David Polich »

It's a "sound-of-music" chord. Memorize the shape and you're good to go.

I have lots of "shape" chords memorized. The Keith Emerson shape, the Elton John shape,
etc. I don't know their names but I know what they look like.
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Shooshie
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Re: Need a chord name...

Post by Shooshie »

David Polich wrote:It's a "sound-of-music" chord. Memorize the shape and you're good to go.

I have lots of "shape" chords memorized. The Keith Emerson shape, the Elton John shape,
etc. I don't know their names but I know what they look like.

You got it.
Of course, that means I write it: FS-o-M
:lol:

I know what you mean about Keith, Elton, and so forth. There's an Elton progression I figured out long ago and would have to do it again, but it's like it turns on a subdominant where you're expecting a dominant turn. It always bugged the heck out of me to hear it.

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