How would you play a 2-hand keyboard part with 1 hand?

[BobK]

I changed the title of this thread - it was originally 'How would you play a 3-hand keyboard part with 2 hands?', but the new title is more accurate.

One of my songs has a 4-bar vamp at the end, with a keyboard part that requires two hands to play since it's voiced in tenths. Some of the 10ths are major, some are minor, but they're non-diatonic.

When performing live, I want to play this 10ths part with one hand, while playing a single-note melody over it (with a different sound, for what it's worth).

EDIT: To cut to the chase for those just arriving at this thread, Apple MainStage has a MIDI plugin called 'Chord Trigger' which does exactly this. Thanks Kurt Cowling for pointing this out (see 13th reply in this thread).


Solution 1: Program the 2-hand part as a MIDI loop (I was using Ableton Live 9), and play the single-note part myself. Rather than play the whole song to a click, the plan was to tap in the tempo a bar before the loop start. It's simple to set this up in Live, but difficult to actually pull it off; even when I was able to tap in the tempo accurately, which took a lot of practice, the deal-breaker was that it requires good monitoring for the bassist and drummer, and that's something I can't count on having.

Solution 2: Create a sample library, assigning each of the tenths to a single note, so I could play that part in real time with one hand and the single-note line with the other and avoid using loops entirely. This worked.

For playing the 10ths, I liked a layered keyboard sound which was one of Live's included instruments. But not knowing Live very well, I wanted to use DP to record and edit the samples. So I recorded Live's audio into DP 8 via ReWire, edited the notes in DP, exported them, and made an Instrument in Kontakt.

(This was the first time I'd made a Kontakt instrument. Here's a cool tip I found in a video online: if your file names end with a MIDI note name (e.g., 'Keyboard C5.wav', 'Keyboard D5.wav' etc), you can get Kontakt to automatically map them to their respective keys.)

For performing, I set up a keyboard split in MainStage, and now I can play both parts live.

What I'm wondering is if there are alternate (and preferably simpler) ways to do this that I didn't think of. Thought I'd toss it out here since there are some great production minds lurking about.

EDIT: The main thing I'm wondering is if there are applications that can map an incoming MIDI note to two other notes, and which would be compatible with other apps like DP, Live, and MainStage. Example: I play F#1 on the keyboard, and that triggers the MIDI notes D1 and F#2 (but doesn't play a sound on F#1). I'm thinking Max MSP might be able to do this, but it's pretty spendy.


Thanks in advance.

[David Polich]

Make life simple. Record the part as audio in DP. Play back in DP from your laptop at gig.

It really is that simple.

[BobK]

Make life simple. Record the part as audio in DP. Play back in DP from your laptop at gig.

It really is that simple.

This would have the same sync and monitoring issues as with Live, unless I'm missing something. BTW, the context is a jazz tune which has some open repeats.

[Shooshie]

Can you do a keyboard split in which each side of the split overlaps the entire range? I'm thinking transpose one split up a 10th, such that you play one note and both sound. It would be easy to call up the preset, then get back out of it. I can't remember if my keyboard will allow a full overlap on a split or not.

Just checked. Yes, you can do that on a Kurzweil. Set up a new zone. Then set the range of the zone. The ranges are independent, so zones can have identical ranges. I think you could then transpose one zone, but I haven't checked that. Seems logical that zones would be independently transposable. In fact, they wouldn't be much use if you couldn't.

So, that may be an option, if your keyboard also allows such setup.

Shooshie

[BobK]

Can you do a keyboard split in which each side of the split overlaps the entire range? I'm thinking transpose one split up a 10th, such that you play one note and both sound. It would be easy to call up the preset, then get back out of it. I can't remember if my keyboard will allow a full overlap on a split or not.

Just checked. Yes, you can do that on a Kurzweil. Set up a new zone. Then set the range of the zone. The ranges are independent, so zones can have identical ranges. I think you could then transpose one zone, but I haven't checked that. Seems logical that zones would be independently transposable. In fact, they wouldn't be much use if you couldn't.

So, that may be an option, if your keyboard also allows such setup.

Shooshie

CORRECTION: Originally in this reply I said the tenths are diatonic, but I just remembered that one of them isn't. So diatonic transposition, even if it's possible in some application, wouldn't work.

[Prime Mover]

MainStage to the rescue! I was kind of bummed that they don't actually have a diatonic MIDI harmonizer plugin (though I'm sure with enough time you could make one with the script editor), here's a pretty cool way of doing it that this guy found, just using two layers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlSlUuFQOWg

So you just need to play the root, and setup a 10th with the instructions in this video. Much better than having to trigger outside tracks.

[Prime Mover]

EVEN BETTER METHOD!!!
This is even simpler and doesn't resort to pitch shifting:

In MainStage, duplicate the track and limit its range (if you're only wanting the 10th in the left hand). Now apply the "Transpose" MIDI plugin to this track. Set the Transpose to "16" semitones (a Major 10th). Then set the "Root" and "Scale" to the key and quality (C-Major for instance). If you're in major, you're good to go! If you're in minor, then you MAY or may not have some issues with chord quality prediction, since the V can be both major or minor depending upon its function. If the V is always going to be minor (non-cadential), set the "Scale" to Natural Minor, if the V is always going to be major (cadential), set the "Scale" to "Harmonic Minor". If there's both, you're screwed and no harmonizer will ever be able to predict that.

[BobK]

The 10ths are not diatonic (see my previous post - and I just now added this fact to the original post). So your first solution (the one with the video) would probably work, but the second one wouldn't.

I'll give this a try at some point, but since I haven't found a similar patch in MainStage to the one I liked in Live, I'd have to roll my own keyboard sound first.

Thanks, Eric!

[BobK]

The 'harmonizer' solution did work, with one problem: one of the pitches serves as the 10th in one part of the phrase and the root in another. Where it's the 10th, it has to be tuned up a half step to get the correct note, but that means it's a half step too high when played as the root. To work around this, I have to play a half-step up from the root and tune that note down a half-step to get the desired note. Yes, it's a little confusing. I'll probably stick with my original solution, but it's good to know about this option.

[Shooshie]

If the 10th are harmonized the same way every time, you can create a transposition map in DP. You can do anything with DP's transposition, mapping each note of the scale.

Shoosh

[stubbsonic]

I've often used custom keymaps just to create whatever things I needed. Just create however many layers and map any pitches to any keys until I have what I need.

I've also use the K2xxx series instruments great arrange functions to use individual keys to trigger a sequence that just consists of one chord (though it will do full sequences on every key you assign). The K2xxx will even let you scale the velocities of the sequence based on how hard you hit the trigger key.

I imagine Kontakt will have many other ways to accomplish those kinds of things.

[BobK]

If the 10th are harmonized the same way every time, you can create a transposition map in DP. You can do anything with DP's transposition, mapping each note of the scale.

Unfortunately, not only are the tenths not diatonic, they're also not all harmonized the same way - some are major, some are minor.

@stubbsonic: I hadn't thought to check Kontakt, so I'll look into that for future reference.

Thanks to both of you!

[Shooshie]

If the 10th are harmonized the same way every time, you can create a transposition map in DP. You can do anything with DP's transposition, mapping each note of the scale.

Unfortunately, not only are the tenths not diatonic, they're also not all harmonized the same way - some are major, some are minor.!

Well, maybe I don't understand what you're doing, Bob.

It sounds to me like you want something to help you play the 10ths. That's doable, diatonic or not. Diatonic has nothing to do with it. You can make a transposition map that takes care of whatever notes you want.

I haven't tried this, but I've done many similar things in concert, so I'm guessing it could be done:

• 1) In the Transpose dialog, make a transposition map for each phrase that has the 10ths. Each map would be different.
  2) Save each map with a unique name.
  3) Create two MIDI tracks to channel your keyboard to the instrument of your choice
  4) assign each track the same I/O
  5) Assign the Transpose plugin to one track
  6) Select a map, saved in step 2
  7) Use automation to select the appropriate map for each phrase.

The only part I'm not sure of is whether the MIDI plugins are fully automatable. That is, will automation pick up your changing of the map by the menu? And if so, will it play it back without any hiccups? I haven't tried it, so I don't know. But I do know that if it will work in DP, this is probably the way it will work. When I've done it in concert, it's always worked without error.

That said, if it's not what you want, then I guess I don't know what you want. But diatonic has nothing to do with it, I repeat. Transpose maps are customized. You determine which notes transpose to where. Given a few such maps, and assuming that automation works, you should be able to do this without any trouble, providing also that you are playing in time with the MIDI sequence.

If you want it to be more free-hand, without playing in time to the sequence, that might also be done with a custom console, but that's a big "if." I'm not sure a custom console could be used to trigger a change to the transpose plugin, even with automation. However, if QuicKeys will work for you, it responds to MIDI triggers, which can be sent via a pedal or something, which then could "automate" the transpose plugin.

It's treading on a high wire without a net, but these are the kinds of things I did in concert for 20 years. It just requires extensive setup, then some practice to make sure it's easily done, and you are then on the way.

I've already thought of another way, which may even be simpler:

• 1) set up your transpose maps in the Transpose Dialog, as I outlined above.
  2) Make a track for each phrase that requires a separate transpose map, and each phrase without the doubled part.
  3) Add the Transpose plugin to each track that needs it, and set it for the map that you need. Alternate these with the tracks that represent the phrases without 10ths. These tracks must go in order of the phrases. If you have phrases A, B, C, and D, and if phrases B and D have the doubled major and minor 10ths, respectively, then you would have 4 tracks. Phrase A requires just a plain MIDI track (A) with no transpose plugin. Phrase B would require Track B with the MIDI plugin set for Major 10ths (but customized, not diatonic), then phrase C would require another plain track (C), and phrase D would require Track D with another MIDI transpose plugin set for Minor 10ths (customized).
  4) In the Commands Window, go to "Record Enable Next Track" and "Record Enable Previous Track." Set those up to receive the MIDI commands from your choice of controllers: keyboard, pedals, buttons, switches, knobs, ..., and then set up your MIDI device to send those commands. You could do it with a single expression pedal or fader, such that 0 was "next track" and 127 was Previous track. (actually, 10 and 120 might be better choices. Then you'd make momentary contact with those as you pushed the fader all the way up or down)
  5) Set up a Custom Console for each track with 10ths, such that a 2nd track perfectly duplicates whatever you play in the 1st track. The 2nd track will be the one that gets the Transpose Map via the Transpose Plugin.
  6) When you play, press the controller that advances the Record Enable to the next track. It will go through single tracks without 10ths, and doubled tracks with the appropriate 10th transpose map.

That's harder to set up, but it's easier to control, and there's no need to play exactly with a sequence. But you'd better have TWO pedals (or keys, yadda, yadda), in case you overshoot and have to go back up one track. It sounds hard, and indeed it requires setup in several areas, but it'll be very easy to play with this.

Again, I've done this kind of thing in concert. Not this PARTICULAR thing, but similar. DP has never made an error in concert, because that's always just a matter of playing back (and being sure you have the custom consoles open, etc.), which DP does flawlessly.

Shooshie

[Kurt Cowling]

Simplest yet... Mainstage has a MIDI plug in called "chord trigger" especially for this very thing.

[Shooshie]

Simplest yet... Mainstage has a MIDI plug in called "chord trigger" especially for this very thing.

There ya go! My instincts always start with creating a working path in DP, because that's what I was doing before most of the current options existed. But when you find something made for the purpose, there's nothing better! What I described looks complicated, but in fact would take about 15 minutes to set up, but it requires you manage it during the performance.

If there is a plugin for MainStage that is made for this, that's the way to go.

Shooshie