Guitar/Vocal amp question

[Shooshie]

I'm getting my daughter a guitar/vocal amp (or something like that) for her birthday, and need some advice. Let me explain who she is and what she needs.

She:
A 27 year old singer/songwriter specializing in Brazilian music, trained in Rio de Janeiro and Paris, speaks fluent Portuguese and French, and sings songs in both languages, as well as English, of course. She is a real pro, with a lot of support in Dallas, where she has become well-loved among her fans.

Guitar:
Her acoustic guitar playing is complex and stylistically correct for the songs she plays. She's an excellent guitarist, and to hear her play and sing, you'd think there were more than one person doing it. In other words, she's not a strummer. When she plays gigs in which others share the stage, she outclasses them both in playing and in singing. She could go places if she met the right people.

Gigs:
She plays venues ranging from 300 to 1500 people, as well as outdoor venues. As she moves to larger venues, we'll deal with sound systems as she needs them, but for now she needs something for the size I just stated.

Needs:
My complaint with her concerts has been that I often cannot understand the consonants, and the playing gets fuzzy in the midrange where most of the action is. The reason is because of the cheap stuff she's used for amplification, usually borrowed from other musician friends.

I took her to a recent gig with one of my Equator Audio Research Q10 self-powered monitors, and set it up with her mixing board. She sounded unbelievable. Every word was easily understood. The playing sounded classical. I want her to have something that sounds that clear and open, with that kind of power, but easily transported. The EAR Q10 is bulky, heavy, without handles, and is not meant for gigs, but surely there is something really, really good like that which is perfect for gigging, that a petite lady can get in and out of her car, roll to the door, and load in/out.

So, any ideas? I was looking at an AER Compact 60, but I'm not sure that's the right answer. I have not heard one, except by reputation. Apparently Tommy Emmanuel uses one, but I hate buying something because someone else uses it. Also, does he use it for his PA, or is it just his stage monitor? She is usually playing in situations where the PA and stage monitor are the same, but in some venues she plugs into the house system, so a personal monitor would be nice.

Thanks in advance for any good ideas.

Shooshie

[Gravity Jim]

What's the budget? A Bose L1 (or the Fishman copy) would be ideal, but they're spendy.

[Shooshie]

What's the budget? A Bose L1 (or the Fishman copy) would be ideal, but they're spendy.

I'd probably go $1500 if it was a good deal. But I'm not saying that's my limit. I'd like to know what fits that situation, and I'll get a feel for what's out there. If $1500 is too low for this, I'll adjust my frame of mind. I'm only into what works. It doesn't have to be the best thing out there; that would actually make her a target for robbery. I don't want that, either. Just a good, workhorse rig that has excellent sound and penetration.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I looked at the Bose L1, and I like it a lot. It's the kind of thing I think I'd enjoy using myself, and I think it would attract attention to her before she even played a note. (every little bit helps) But I fear two things:

• 1) it might make her a target. She goes to a lot of these gigs alone. I like the idea of hiding tremendous quality in plain sight.
  2) The reviews talk like its ideal for a crowd of about 50. Beyond that, they tend to agree that the sound gets lost before it reaches the back.

Still, it seems like a great idea, and I'd like to see it developed into a more powerful system. It's definitely something I'd consider getting for her, though. I need to talk to her about the typical room size. Maybe the larger places all have their own PA systems.

Thanks for the info.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Rethinking the L1. The Model 2, coupled with the bass B2 unit and that simple mixer they put with it, the thing seems like such a perfect system. There are a lot of people saying they really like it, and that their audiences seem to like it a lot. The whole deal might cost around $3200, and I'd probably do that if it's as good as they say it is. But I'd get it from Sweetwater, where we can send it right back if it doesn't penetrate to the rear of the hall.

I'd be interested in opinions.

Shooshie

[Gravity Jim]

I can't speak to the bigger halls, but I've heard the L1 used in large clubs and it's fairly amazing. If you're playing in a hall l(or a club larger than a few hundred seats), I'd expect them to have their own system tuned to the room.

[Shooshie]

I can't speak to the bigger halls, but I've heard the L1 used in large clubs and it's fairly amazing. If you're playing in a hall l(or a club larger than a few hundred seats), I'd expect them to have their own system tuned to the room.

Yeah, that's usually the case, I think. Plus, the gigs I've heard her on have been pretty attentive; not so much talking that you can't hear the music. Most people are actually listening. This might be just the thing. Still looking at alternatives, but this looks really good.

Shoosh

[davedempsey]

Have a look at the QSC K10 - for smaller audiences she may well be able to get away with one only - and because the unit has a simple 2 input mixer on board it may be that no mixer is required. If the L1/L2 seems an attractive option I would encourage you to look at the HK Elements system - you would, however, then need to look at a console.

[mhschmieder]

I owned the AER Compact 60 for awhile. Great amp, but my needs changed so I sold it to the bandleader, who upon termination of that project went on to do flamenco music, using it both for guitar and vocals as well as occasionally flute. Everything was very clear.

I think a small P/A style speaker would be a better match overall though. I highly recommend looking into the E/V 8" monitor (as a single, not a stereo pair). I bought it mostly for keyboard practice, but it is remarkably well-balanced, articulate, and natural sounding.

Not so good for B3 playing, but good for almost anything else. I haven't tried it specifically for acoustic guitar and vocals though, and there'd need to be a DI from the piezo or mic to the speaker, but it takes two independent inputs, one of which can (but doesn't have to be) a mic (independent gain). No EQ of course as it's a powered speaker with direct connections (usually).

I did shootouts with ALL of the QSC units at the time. They're also good, but the 10" can get honky (typical of 10" speakers), and the 12" and 15" can get a bit woofy. I'd say they're better for B3 playing, and other stuff that needs a lot of low end or more power but isn't necessarily full frequency range.

The E/V is well-known and well-loved for its transparency and breadth of applicability. It can also be turned on its side like a wedge monitor; you rotate the speaker 90 degrees when you use it that way (few P/A monitors have this capability).

[Shooshie]

Thanks folks. I really appreciate the help. I've ordered two systems, the AER Compact 60 and the Bose L1 Compact. I really wanted to get the L1 Model 2 with B2 bass, but it weighs about 85 lbs., and that's more than she can handle alone. She needs to be able to make it in one trip from the car. Both of these systems are lightweight enough for her to carry with the guitar in the other hand.

We're going to try them both, then probably send back the one that doesn't make the cut. Heaven help us if they both are great. The weight really is a factor, and I think she really wants the AER Compact 60, which only weighs about 15 lbs. It's going to take some convincing to me that a 15 lb. monitor can fill up a room with clean sound, but the reviews are pretty unanimous.

The L1 system is interesting. All models have almost universal 5-star ratings, anywhere you look. There must be something to it, unless this is just that Bose mystique thing at work again. I never liked Bose for stereo equipment, and yet they have a fanatical following. I get the feeling, however, that the L1 is the real deal. We'll find out.

Anyway, thanks again for the suggestions. I tracked down every one of them.

Shoosh

[stubbsonic]

I wish I would have peeked at this thread sooner. I was working with an mbira group on their sound system. They had some kind of Bose L1 system (or similar?) and I really didn't like it.

Partly, the sound didn't really knock me out, and in terms of the format, it was weird trying getting the levels up enough for the audience without overwhelming the performers or causing feedback issues. Seemed like a good system for a house concert. But that's it.

[philbrown]

We've got the L1S with 1 sub and the mixer. It seems like that would be underpowered for the size rooms you're talking about. I've also done some gigs with a band that has an L2 and that seems more the size you would need, but it is indeed expensive. The street talk about "These things don't feed back" is BS. It's less prone to feedback but it definitely will. I love the wide coverage- it's almost 180º side to side. We play 2 different L-shaped clubs so that helps. Good luck in your quest and let us know how it turns out.

[Shooshie]

We've got the L1S with 1 sub and the mixer. It seems like that would be underpowered for the size rooms you're talking about. I've also done some gigs with a band that has an L2 and that seems more the size you would need, but it is indeed expensive. The street talk about "These things don't feed back" is BS. It's less prone to feedback but it definitely will. I love the wide coverage- it's almost 180º side to side. We play 2 different L-shaped clubs so that helps. Good luck in your quest and let us know how it turns out.

The worst of the L1 systems is the Compact, which is the one I ordered. I fully expect to send it back. But it will at least give us a ballpark feel for what they can do.

I think my daughter is going to have to come to terms with the fact that she cannot carry a sound system that will fill the larger rooms she's starting to play in. She still plays some cozier clubs and restaurants for which the L1 Compact might be well-suited, but for larger gigs, she's still going to be without a system. We're going to discuss that after they all arrive.

This is a real conundrum. I totally understand her desire for independence, and we all know that loading in or out at some venues is a lottery for hijacking your gear. I would have no problem getting her the L1 model 2 with the B2 bass, which would fill a MUCH larger space, but I can't convince her to do what it takes to carry 100 lbs of gear (when you factor in 85 lbs for the L1, plus the guitar, mixer, mic, mic stand, and assorted sundries). But this is a problem she'll have to come to grips with. We can't solve it with 30 lbs. of gear, though that's what I'm going to try to do for the immediate fix.

By the way, thanks for all your comments, everyone. If I sound like I know what I'm doing, it's because of you, because I'm pretty clueless about all this gear myself. I mean, I know generally what works and what doesn't when I see, hear, and use stuff, and I know more or less why, but I don't know any of the modern models and brands. It's like being lost in the woods. I know where I'm going, but I don't know the path.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I wish I would have peeked at this thread sooner. I was working with an mbira group on their sound system. They had some kind of Bose L1 system (or similar?) and I really didn't like it.

I wish I knew what it was. There are some imitations (or maybe Bose is the imitation; I don't know) such as the Fishman and a Fender that looks like they copied the L1 Compact almost verbatim. But the specs vary widely, as do the prices.

It just seems to me that the L1 Model 2 would be a fantastic system. It's evolved, it's powerful, and I've yet to read a really bad review. And while 85 lbs. is not lightweight, it's also nothing compared to the tons of stuff we used to haul around for our bands. This does the same job that all that did. (so they say) Plus, that 85 lbs. is distributed over about four loads, the maximum weighing about 25. Its not like one 85 lb. road case.

On the other hand, I'm just about ready to hand her the money and let her do it. She'd probably find the best thing for her, and spare us all some anxiety!!! But when it's music stuff, Dad can't help but get involved. Hey, I'm just too much of a gearhead myself! Recovering, that is.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

In case you don't think to try a bunch of contexts that might not occur to you, be sure to test out directionality scenarios, before making your final judgment on which setup works best.

It's been awhile since I last used one of those L-shaped setups (probably Fishman as I shun everything Bose), but my recollection is that it's highly directional -- this can be a good thing for reducing or avoiding feedback, but might be limiting on stage movement if that matters. OTOH since it's been awhile, I'm not up on how configurable this is these days.

The point is just to consider this aspect, as I'd hate to see this context come up as a surprise later on and not to have factored into the decision, causing regrets.

Both approaches -- as well as the E/V Z-series reorientable 8" P/A -- are valid and work to different degrees of success depending on context. Another thing to consider, then, is scalability to different sorts of events and venues. In this sense, your AER may be the best long-term as one can always mic it for the larger events and get a familiar and balanced sound for the additional reinforcement that the venue provides in such cases.