A few questions before purchasing

[CQrity]

Hey guys,

Im right on the edge to purchase DP8, however Ive got some questions, before I pull the trigger.

In fact I want to decide wether Cubase or DP would better fit my needs. Actually I was working with Cubase 5 Edu. Unfortunately there were missing some effects I wanted to use. Got Studio1v2 pro during a sale and was quite happy with it. Right now there are several things that are quite annoying and I made myself again to rethink my workflow.
Long story short, here come the questions:

1. why do I need the Tracks patch? I often see guys composing in the Tracks view. Why dont they work in the Sequenz view?

2.is there anything you like in Cubase that DP misses? As far as I researched its basically the Note Expression and Expression Map feature. DP however has some kind of bundling tracks (which I didnt get if Im honest) and chunks of course.

Thats all for now as Im quite in a hurry, but I will come back later to add some more questions.

Edit, moarrr questions:
3.generally I write themes first on the piano and then develope those themes with different chord progressions and variations. In S1 I then simply drag and drop the individual clips in the S1 browser, so my project doesnt end in a mess of different versions of themes. S1 saves the MIDI and the instrument patch, so I can prelisten those clips in the browser and arrange them by simply drag and drop them back in my project. How would that workflow be in DP?

4. Cubase feels really clunky sometimes. I tried to set up an expression map and as I hit save it needed like forever to do it. And I can only do it with a clean project. I tried this with a few tracks and Cubase instantly freezed. Any observations like that in DP?

Thanks for helping out!

[stubbsonic]

I can't really address your specific questions because I don't work in Cubase.

DP has really solid creative composition tools for MIDI. For example, there are ways to transpose in ways that constrain to a scale (even custom scales), which allows you to do things like move up some number of scale degrees within your custom scale. You can use this to harmonize a line. Also, quantizing has everything you need for detailed work- any tuplets (X notes in the space of Y). The list of powerful composition tools is quite long.

As for edit views, for composition I do most of my work in the piano roll editor (aka "Graphic Editor") which shows the notes as horizontal bars. I can have multiple tracks in the same window or separate windows open simultaneously.

I do have a few gripes about DP, and have had a recent tech issue; nevertheless, I still think DP is a fantastic program for composition. The fact that there are so many heavy composers on this forum who use DP is a really good sign. (And many of them have used other platforms for comparison).

As for your particular workflow questions, I'm afraid I can't offer much help. Perhaps if you have time, you can download the program and run it in demo mode to see if you find what you need.

Best of luck.

Oh, and this forum is an amazing resource with truly wonderful folks. That's a huge benefit, IMHO.

[buhardilla]

I've got both Cubase and DP and I have to say you that the answer to your question is very difficult, because if you want to know them deeply you'll need a considerable step learning curve on both DAWs. Next you'll find that DP has extraordinary features that Cubase hasn't and vice versa. What audio MIDI editing features will be more suitable for your workflow?.... this is a personal choice
An important question that you also must look for is how the DAW will integrate in your personal audio/MIDI rig. For instance: mac Cubase version has a worst performance compared to PC version, or if you goal is video/film scoring, you must know that DP has one the most stable video engine. About this topic have a look in this forum Nuendo thread (http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 94&t=63978)

About your questions
Why do I need Track overview if there is a sequencer? Is hard to explain what you can do with both windows but once you get to know how to use them you'll find them crucial in the editing workflow . Look for DP video tutorials and see them in action.
Cubase have great features: Expression maps, Chord tracks ..etc How important are for you miss these features? If they are essential for your workflow you choice is Cubase. But you must know that are workarounds. Ie. this is my solution for expressions: I have installed in my iPad "MIDIpads" (http://www.midipad.com/Website/Info.html) I have assigned the key-switchers articulations of EWQL/Hollywood String orchestra instruments to different pads groups. I've also arranged combinations of notes, CC,.. I can easily trigger articulations as like I'd do from an expression Cubase lane .
About you last two questions, you could solve it in DP with: chunks, loads sequences from another project, with a clipping folder..... I think there're various ways to do it

[Shooshie]

Tracks Overview was one of the early windows in DP, back when its name was Performer and was primarily a MIDI app. That window has always given super-powers to those who understand it, and those who don't, sadly, rarely open it. To describe all the benefits of it would presume that you knew something about DP, so it's not going to be easy to explain. I don't have the time at the moment, but I'll get back to this later.

For now, just consider the Tracks Overview Window a very nice addition to DP, offering a lot of tricks that would be difficult in a regular piano-roll or audio-track editor. MIDI, by the way, is edited in the MIDI Graphic Edit Window. The Sequence Editor is most powerful for audio. For MIDI it has perks, but nothing like the MIDI Graphic Editor. But if you need to line up MIDI and Audio, or that sort of thing, the Sequence Editor is hard to beat.

I'll be back...

Shooshie

[mikehalloran]

Hopefully you've downloaded the evaluation copy and are putting it through its paces. It's much easier to give answers to specific questions when you have them.

Many of us open the manual on a second screen or iPad when trying to figure something out. Being a searchable .pdf makes it easy to find what you need.

[CQrity]

Thanks for the input guys, helps a lot!

If you cant answer to the specific questions, what do you like most about DPs MIDI capabilties?

Unfortunately I cant try the demo, because I already activated it some time ago. On that point there were several reasons for me to let the demo time pass without testing DP seriously.
Quite dumb, cant do something about that now, so I have to ask this way.

During tht testing phase I had difficulties to get into the workflow. I watched some tutorials from Groove3 but they didnt help a lot. At least I surrendered trying to learn it. I thought that it would be better to focus my energy in learning my current DAW (Studio One) than trying to learn another. As you can see, Iam back, so didnt work out quite well.
I heard something about a book from Magic Dave, where he discribes the workflow of DP, which might help quite a lot to make up my mind for DP.

My question on the Tracks View was one of those difficulties, as I didnt get, why I would want to use it.
Then I disliked the way I had to set up the VIs, after working with Studio One (Drag the VI on an emty part in the timeline, done) it was just totaly complicated and timeconsuming.
Does this make any sense to you?


All in all I try to decide, wether DP is worth my time learning it (and spending about 300$) , or if I should go back to Cubase, which I know on more than a basic level on version 5 (spending about 449$...).

Edit: Oh and I really would like to see someone actually working with it, but I cant find good videos. Just some mini tutorials. Do you have any suggestions? Thx!

[leigh]

http://www.groove3.com/str/Digital-Perf ... ained.html

http://www.groove3.com/str/Digital-Perf ... anced.html

[Shooshie]

Thanks for the input guys, helps a lot!

If you cant answer to the specific questions, what do you like most about DPs MIDI capabilties?

Pretty much everything. I must say that I wish they'd flesh out the keyboard commands for the MIDI editing tools a little bit. For example, the Reshape Tool has quite a number of settings, including spline tools, freehand, straight line, flat line, parabola, and so forth, but also behaviors such as scale by percentage, add, subtract, set, limit, and possibly another one or two. If I could access all those with a key, it would really facilitate rapid editing. I'm used to it, but I always think about it when I'm using it.

Also, I'd like to see simple key-press commands for switching to Lines mode, Bars mode, and Points mode. If you'd like to see an explanation (brief) of those modes, check out the post on working with control points and automation in the DP Tips Sheet thread, page 2.

The best way to work is to learn the tools intimately and switch often to the exact mode or tool that is best for the job at the moment. Sometimes I draw control points, and sometimes I use the Lines mode, which makes it easy to just drag points around. It creates the points necessary to fill in the lines as you are working. (Read about it in the link above.) Each has its advantages, and I'm switching a lot. Of course, you can use the Reshape Tool in lines mode, and save some time; no need to switch display modes every time you change tools.

The Control Key is essential. With it, you can proportionately drag a selection vertically or horizontally to stretch it, rather than change just the durations or move as a group. When proportionately dragging, use the SHIFT key to constrain to one direction or the other.

Unfortunately I cant try the demo, because I already activated it some time ago. On that point there were several reasons for me to let the demo time pass without testing DP seriously.
Quite dumb, cant do something about that now, so I have to ask this way.

During the testing phase I had difficulties to get into the workflow. I watched some tutorials from Groove3 but they didnt help a lot. At least I surrendered trying to learn it. I thought that it would be better to focus my energy in learning my current DAW (Studio One) than trying to learn another. As you can see, Iam back, so didnt work out quite well.
I heard something about a book from Magic Dave, where he discribes the workflow of DP, which might help quite a lot to make up my mind for DP.

Workflow is a very personal thing in DP. Because there are so many ways to do everything, and SO many customizable commands, no two people's workflows will be exactly the same. One of my favorite customized workflows involves something that really should be a single keypress, but it's not, so I had to create a way to do it that worked for me. The problem:
1) You're in the MIDI Graphic Editor, working with LOTS of continuous controllers for things like Breath Control, Expression, Vibrato speed, Vibrato depth, Pan, Effects, and the like. You want to move a note, but how will you move all those controllers with it? You've just spent time editing them to smooth out transitions between notes, make brilliant attacks, ease in the vibrato, or who knows what, not to mention that you played it all in with a MIDI Wind Controller like the Yamaha WX-5, so you've got BC controllers in waves and waves. How do you keep them all where they belong while you move a note or phrase?
2) You select the notes, then change the event selection into a range selection. I set up a few commands that allow me to just press the down arrow and up arrow, and it's done. I can expand it a little to grab controllers on the edges that might have gotten missed. In all, it takes less than a second to do. Literally.
3) Check it out in the post I made years ago in the Working With Selections post in the Tips Sheet Thread, page 2. It explains in greater detail how to set up that particular workflow. Takes about 15 minutes to set up the first time, but from then on it's a half-second job. That's an action I perform hundreds of times a day when I'm working. The alternative is very time consuming. SavesI me a lot of mousing around. Still, I'd love it if MOTU would give us a dedicated command for that.

My question on the Tracks View was one of those difficulties, as I didnt get, why I would want to use it.

There are numerous workflows that involve the Tracks Overview Window. I'm still tapped out, and don't want to get into a long post on that yet. Search the forum, and you'll find some I've written before. Use the Advanced search. In fact, there is a tip in the tips sheet about that. I'll paste it in:

• Category: Shortcuts, Tools, Keyboard Commands
  ••••••••••••Secrets of the Tracks Overview Window••••••••••••
  Works in: Tracks Overview Window
  The Tracks Overviews Window is more flexible than you think. Try the following key-commands while clicking and dragging in the Tracks Overview Window:
  
  First of all, these apply when your Selection Mode is set to "All." (See Preferences/Tools, look for drop-down menu at the top with three options: Range selections only, Phrase and Event Selections Only, and All) "All" is the most flexible when you learn the following keyboard modifiers.
  ••• Shift-Click will select an entire phrase or add to a selection.
  ••• Control-Click will select an entire bar (or whatever resolution you have your grid set to)
  ••• Command-Click&Drag selects individual notes if you start outside a phrase and drag into it
  ••• Command-Drag on selected notes overrides bar constraints, and moves notes exactly to whatever location you drag them to
  ••• Option-Drag copies selection and merges copy into new location.
  ••• Option-Command-Drag does the same as above, but overrides bar constraints and moves copied events to exactly the location to which you drag them.
  ••• Control-Command-Click&Drag enables you to select individual notes within a phrase. Add Shift key to add to selection.
  ••• Command-Shift will add/remove phrases in selection. I do not know of a way to remove individual notes from selection in the Tracks Overview Window.
  
  Note the next-to-the-last command in my list: Control-Command-Click&Drag enables you to select individual notes within a phrase. This is probably one of the most useful combinations. Learn it above all others.
  
  Once you have your selection as you wish, then just click on it and drag. Do not use the Shift key when clicking on it, or you will select the entire bar.
  
  Grid Resolution - The Tracks Overview Window can be stretched (COMMAND-RIGHT ARROW) or collapsed (COMMAND-LEFT ARROW) so that clicking in a "bar" in the grid selects less or more data, respectively. Expand it so that each bar in the grid represents one 8th note (240 ticks) and it becomes easy to grab 8th notes and move them around. Likewise for 16ths, or quarter notes, or any other resolution.
  
  When you drag notes or events in the Tracks Overview Window, by default they are constrained to the grid. You can move them up, down, left, or right, but they will jump to the next bar of the grid, retaining their relative position within that bar. If you want to move them without constraint, hold down the COMMAND Key and drag. As you learn to use it, the Tracks Overview Window becomes more and more similar to the Graphic Editing windows. In the Consolidated Windows, I like to keep one window set captured (recalled with a keyboard command) that puts the Tracks Overview Window on top, and the MIDI Edit Window on bottom, full-screen across. That makes it easy to leap back and forth between them.
  
  Moving Soundbites to Front or Back - Sometimes soundbites overlap. To reach a buried soundbite:
  ••• COMMAND-SHIFT-MINUS to move backward
  ••• COMMAND-OPTION-MINUS to move to the back
  ••• COMMAND-SHIFT-EQUAL to move forward
  ••• COMMAND-OPTION-EQUAL to move to the front.
  
  Dragging Markers - You can Drag Markers in the Tracks Overview Window.
  •••To toggle the grid on or off, hold down the COMMAND KEY and drag.
  •••To toggle locked/unlocked markers, hold down the OPTION KEY and click on the marker.
  _________________
  Shooshie
  --------------------
  --------------------

Then I disliked the way I had to set up the VIs, after working with Studio One (Drag the VI on an emty part in the timeline, done) it was just totaly complicated and timeconsuming.
Does this make any sense to you?

All in all I try to decide, wether DP is worth my time learning it (and spending about 300$) , or if I should go back to Cubase, which I know on more than a basic level on version 5 (spending about 449$...).

Edit: Oh and I really would like to see someone actually working with it, but I cant find good videos. Just some mini tutorials. Do you have any suggestions? Thx!

What people sometimes forget is that a DAW is like building a home. It's where you're going to be working every day for perhaps a lifetime. Looking at it that way, the $450 evaporates into thin air. It's just nothing for the place you're going to be living and working in while doing music at the computer.

DP's not perfect; nor is any other DAW, but it's been around for 30 years, and that says something about it. It's not antiquated; it's still got that cutting-edge feel.

I love the themes. I change themes and track colors as the need or desire arises. It helps me to enjoy the app a LOT more.

Most of us have tried seriously at least one or two other DAWs. We find ourselves back here, but having a frame of reference to remind us how good we actually have it in DP.

There's no substitute for hands-on experience, and there's no substitute for a community like this one that teaches you and answers darn near any question, except for those that only MOTU can answer.

Lastly, a lot of top professionals in the music business have used DP for much of their career. Don't underestimate the reasons for that. When you see Madonna on tour, or Beyoncé, or Pat Metheny, or many, many other groups, or when you watch many top TV shows or movies, you are seeing DP at work behind the scenes. There are a lot of reasons for that.

Good luck making up your mind...

Shooshie

[CQrity]

Thank you again!

In the last days I thought a lot about the topic, it was a lot forth and back again, quite exhausting. I came to the point, that I really cant decide which way to go by thinking about it. So I purchased DP8 finally, the Chunk feature made it. I read a few threads with Cubase workarounds, and I really dont want to mess with lots of individual projects for each cue. I guess that I can live without Expression Maps. The indepth test in my studio will show if I am right with that decision.
Thanks all for your help!

Ps: In addition I purchased Magic Daves first book about DP, that will hopefully kickstart my journey

[MIDI Life Crisis]

You won't regret it.

Now there's a person who can make up their mind!!

[cuttime]

Don't forget
https://www.youtube.com/user/motuTV

[CQrity]

Actually I allready saw several of the motu tutorials.

My biggest concern right now is the way of how I have to set up my VIs. As my Workflow depends a lot on the project Im working on, I didnt work with project templates.

Can I set up Track Templates? Like a macro for creating a MIDI Track with an Instrument and an already routed Audio Track?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Look at Clippings and you can pull in various configurations when needed.

[bayswater]

Actually I allready saw several of the motu tutorials.

My biggest concern right now is the way of how I have to set up my VIs. As my Workflow depends a lot on the project Im working on, I didnt work with project templates.

Can I set up Track Templates? Like a macro for creating a MIDI Track with an Instrument and an already routed Audio Track?

You can set up a template with a few tracks, and VIs sitting in V-Racks which will then be listed in the Chunks window. Then turn the V-Racks off before saving as a template. When you load up the template you can turn on the VIs you want to use for a particular piece. Use the Track Overview window to route tracks to VIs.

Compare the Track Overview in DP to the one in Cubase. Shows you an overview, but it also does useful things, unlike the Cubase version. And, if you are going to make a lot of use of Chunks, the TO window is a handy way to copy things between Chunks.

[CQrity]

Guys,

I need some help. I allready started another thread, but I cant resist to ask here again.

During getting to know DP I realized that I get double notes during MIDI recording. I press a note and get to of them, one slightly delayed, only noticeable in full zoom.
I already deleted MIDI inputs in the bundles menu, however my MP5 still sends data.
With step input the problem doesnt occure. With MIDI keys or in Studio One neither.
Looking around now for several hours and reading the manual.
I need some good help, please!

EDIT: Solved the problem myself. You can find it here:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 71#p496171