iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other off topic discussion.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other matters outside deemed outside the scope of helping users make optimal use of MOTU hardware and software. Posts in other forums may be moved here at the moderators discretion. No politics or religion!!
BobK
Posts: 1529
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Oakland, CA
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by BobK »

David Polich wrote:Ya know, I'm just basically tired of Apple "fixing" things, period. Especially things that aren't broken.
+1,000
Bob

M1 Max Mac Studio - 64 GB RAM - macOS 14.1.2
MacBook Pro (15-inch, Mid 2012) - 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 - 16 GB RAM - macOS 10.15.7
DP 11.23
Metric Halo ULN-8 mk4
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by mikehalloran »

David Polich wrote:Ya know, I'm just basically tired of Apple "fixing" things, period. Especially things that aren't
broken. Like Mountain Lion - that wasn't broken.
In the conterxt of DP, no. For other things, yes.
Posts like this make me want to never update anything ever.
No offense intended to the OP, a valuable contributor to these boards, but his post was along the lines of, "The sky is falling! Panic! Panic! Panic! iTunes 12 is a total disaster!"

None of which turned out to be true, btw.

Instead, the OP could have been, "I can't find my files and comments in iTunes 12. Can anybody help?"

In fact, when you figure it out, 12 is the best version since the late, often lamented iTunes 9 -- and I figured out how to make it behave like 9 (which I couldn't really do in 10 or 11 although it might have been possible). I wasn't intuative but neither was it difficult.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by Shooshie »

It's taken me some time to figure out iTunes 12, but I think I'm going to be comfortable with it. I haven't experienced any loss that I can tell. Considering what we've been through with some past and early iTunes versions, this is really not bad. But it HAS been confusing, because it just seems like they've relocated all the buttons and menus, and it's a game of "how do I get this thing to show what I had before?" I think it's all there, but the controls are scattered all over it.

Apple has a tendency in some of its other software to hide controls you don't need until you do need them. This is nice from a design point of view, but it really makes it harder to learn. I always learned software by opening each menu and studying what was there. Then I'd open each dialog box and study what was there. Just going through the whole app that way made it possible for me to know the app before I even used most of the features. That made it possible for me to plan complicated maneuvers without having actually done them before.

But doing it the contextual way, where buttons or menus only appear when there is a situation where they can be used, prevents you from doing things that way. It also prevents you from finding odd and unique solutions that were perhaps not intended by the programmers, but which work and open the control to greater flexibility.

Then along comes an app like iTunes, and I'm just spending most of my time trying to find what they did with MY stuff, as opposed to the frikkin store, and then why only 350 of my 4000-odd files are showing up, and so on, and so forth. I know that in a month I'll have forgotten all this, and I'll have learned how to use all that's there, more or less, but sometimes I feel like designers are stealing my time and energy.

I'll tell you how long it took me to learn how to draw, edit, and print a graphic in MacPaint. Zero time; learning happened faster than usage. I walked into a store with Macs set up, picked up a mouse, saw that it drew, then I drew a picture. Looking at the menus, I saw "Print," and chose it. Suddenly an Imagewriter started buzzing behind me. There was my picture. It was so easy. I think they are trying to do that again and again, but each designer is putting a little more ego into it, and a little less user-friendly.

Bah! I talk too much. It'll be fine. I'll be fine. We'll be fine. It's all fine.

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by mhschmieder »

Yeah, what Shooshie said, regarding menus.

Modern GUI trends are anti-menu. I see the point, but not to exclusivity. In my own app, I retain menus, because I know from personal experience that a large-scale app (like mine) that is complex and does a lot of things, is a lot easier to learn if you can quickly skim what it has to offer and sort of get a feel for what is possible.

You kind of have to already know what you're looking for in recent Microsoft Office GUI's with the hidden Print commands and the ever-morphing tool bars.

In my view, Apple is not as guilty of Microsoft of making GUI decisions that are the opposite of intuitive and which seriously degrade workflow permanently. As stated, they simply "reveal" what they think you need to see based on usage. And that would be fine, as long as it wasn't the ONLY way to find a feature.

As for the missing files, I'm still not quite sure what happened, since the Get Info shows the location even though the app itself says they aren't found. So I have to manually reassert their location via the "locate" dialog.

Since others may not yet be aware of whether anything is missing from their libraries, I should point out that the app has an icon in the left-most column, when in song view, that indicates it can't be found. So the best thing to do is to scroll through that list (even if long) and see if anything is marked as missing.

Mike, I understand what you're saying, but I feel your suggestion would have been self-centered of me, and would not have properly alerted people to the impact on THEIR data vs. mine. That's why I alerted people ASAP, as data loss is a serious thing and people need to know when it might occur so they can protect themselves. Asking for help for MY problem would not have gotten the right message across. And of course I changed the title once the situation became clearer.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
BobK
Posts: 1529
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Oakland, CA
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by BobK »

IMO this quote from MacPerformanceGuide.com (emphasis added by me) really captures Apple's seemingly-insatiable appetite for change in recent years:
The user interface changes on OS X Yosemite feel gratuitous and arbitrary; they do not improve the usability in any way I can detect; rather I find that elements are rather merged in feel—less discrete, less solid. If the changes make the cut of true visual and usability improvements, why does every OS X release redo it all?
Bob

M1 Max Mac Studio - 64 GB RAM - macOS 14.1.2
MacBook Pro (15-inch, Mid 2012) - 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 - 16 GB RAM - macOS 10.15.7
DP 11.23
Metric Halo ULN-8 mk4
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11925
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by bayswater »

That assumes that someone knows the ideal interface, that it can be built with the technology of the past, and that the way people work, which should drive the design of the interface, will not change.

When was the perfect car built, or are we still waiting?
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
David Polich
Posts: 4827
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by David Polich »

BobK wrote:IMO this quote from MacPerformanceGuide.com (emphasis added by me) really captures Apple's seemingly-insatiable appetite for change in recent years:
The user interface changes on OS X Yosemite feel gratuitous and arbitrary; they do not improve the usability in any way I can detect; rather I find that elements are rather merged in feel—less discrete, less solid. If the changes make the cut of true visual and usability improvements, why does every OS X release redo it all?
Exactly. My take on the reason for the visual changes in Yosemite - because some nerd at
Apple thought it would be "cool". Probably the same nerd who thought it was a good idea to
hide the User Library starting with Lion. Or change the scrollbars so that they only appear when you mouse over (or "finger over") the right side of the window. Or App Nap - now there's a truly pointless "feature"…you have to turn it off for the apps you use constantly (like DP, for example).
2019 Mac Pro 8-core, 32GB RAM, Mac OS Ventura, MIDI Express 128, Apogee Duet 3, DP 11.2x, Waves, Slate , Izotope, UAD, Amplitube 5, Tonex, Spectrasonics, Native Instruments, Pianoteq, Soniccouture, Arturia, Amplesound, Acustica, Reason Objekt, Plasmonic, Vital, Cherry Audio, Toontrack, BFD, Yamaha Motif XF6, Yamaha Montage M6, Korg Kronos X61, Alesis Ion,Sequential Prophet 6, Sequential OB-6, Hammond XK5, Yamaha Disklavier MK 3 piano.
http://www.davepolich.com
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11925
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by bayswater »

David Polich wrote: Exactly. My take on the reason for the visual changes in Yosemite - because some nerd at
Apple thought it would be "cool". Probably the same nerd who thought it was a good idea to
hide the User Library starting with Lion. Or change the scrollbars so that they only appear when you mouse over (or "finger over") the right side of the window. Or App Nap - now there's a truly pointless "feature"…you have to turn it off for the apps you use constantly (like DP, for example).
Nerds not necessarily necessary. The changes we see are because the user base and the technology has changed.

Visual changes come with increases screen resolution and GPU power. I like the look of Y better than previous versions. I find it less distracting, and after a few days, easier to find things. I'd actually prefer the old Atari ST GUI, but that doesn't sell computers any more.

Scrollbars can be set the way you want them. It takes one click. They haven't changed. But there are zillions of new users that don't want them cluttering up their screens. If you use a trackpad the scroll bars are an anachronism.

App Nap is there to preserve battery power, something of concern to most OS X users. Maybe there could be a setup option when you install on a desktop to turn it off by default, but really, you only need to turn it off for a few apps.

Library was hidden to reduce the number of support calls from people who deleted it, changed it or otherwise screwed it up. Does it make more sense for Apple to train millions of unsophisticated users to leave the library alone, or to rely on a few thousand pro users to figure out how to make it visible?

Understandably long term pro users may not like the changes, but that's not Apple's market, if it ever was.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
Dan Worley
Posts: 2778
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:03 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Northern CA

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by Dan Worley »

Sometimes Apple's changes just don't make any utilitarian sense. There is no reason to make things more convoluted if that convolution doesn't add something spectacular.
DP10.13
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Maybe it's like a supermarket or a store (like IKEA) moving stuff around to force you to look harder, for stuff so you'll find crap you don't want or need but are so excited to discover - and forget what you started out to do in the first place.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
Dan Worley
Posts: 2778
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:03 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Northern CA

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp.

Post by Dan Worley »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Maybe it's like a supermarket or a store (like IKEA) moving stuff around to force you to look harder, for stuff so you'll find crap you don't want or need but are so excited to discover - and forget what you started out to do in the first place.
Now that's good design.

Brilliant!
DP10.13
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by Shooshie »

mhschmieder wrote:Mike, I understand what you're saying, but I feel your suggestion would have been self-centered of me, and would not have properly alerted people to the impact on THEIR data vs. mine. That's why I alerted people ASAP, as data loss is a serious thing and people need to know when it might occur so they can protect themselves. Asking for help for MY problem would not have gotten the right message across. And of course I changed the title once the situation became clearer.
I've done the same thing, Mark. It's a much lesser sin to yell "the sky is falling" and get people to check their own stuff, than to say "hmmm... I wonder what the status of the sky is," and later find people digging their data out of the rubble. If it was nothing, you'll look foolish, of course, but that's the price of early warning. Sometimes the sky IS falling.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by Shooshie »

David Polich wrote:
BobK wrote:If the changes make the cut of true visual and usability improvements, why does every OS X release redo it all?
Exactly. My take on the reason for the visual changes in Yosemite - because some nerd at
Apple thought it would be "cool". Probably the same nerd who thought it was a good idea to
hide the User Library starting with Lion. Or change the scrollbars so that they only appear when you mouse over (or "finger over") the right side of the window. Or App Nap - now there's a truly pointless "feature"…you have to turn it off for the apps you use constantly (like DP, for example).
I've been thinking the same thing for a few versions of OS X, now. When they announced that Jony Ive would be taking over product design, including software, with COMPLETE control over all aspects of it, I figured we were in for a wild ride. Immediately we see Mavericks released without the user Library visible. Sure there were ways to get to it, and we found them, but it miffs me a little that we had to do this search to find what we were accustomed to being right there. I made an alias, and that was that.

Oh... and don't get me started again on aliases, those little 4K pointer files that now occupy more space than the things they represent. (10MB alias? C'mon; there is NO justification for that! My first hard drive was 10MB; not even big enough to hold one single pointer to a little picture on the drive.)

Despite the things that Bayswater said, which also make sense, I feel the vibe of power struggles within Apple. Those things are always going on, but we shouldn't have to feel them or deal with the fallout. In government, autocratic dictators are bad. In corporations, maybe not so bad if they have the vision. Jobs went by one barometer: his own gee-whiz factor. If it made him want one, it was right. He was not an expert in any particular field. Surprisingly, that was what made him the perfect barometer. He didn't geek out over some latest design philosophy, he knew what felt cool to him, the ultimate user, not the ultimate designer. And I think he learned that after the failure of "The Cube" Mac, which was his baby that nobody really liked.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by Shooshie »

bayswater wrote:When was the perfect car built, or are we still waiting?
Mine was built sometime around March, 2013. After having a Prius V, that's all I want in a car. Unless they learn to make them run on air. Seriously, I know what you mean. I'd like it better if it knew who got in the car without being told, and automatically set everything to their preferences, which it learned without asking. :wink:

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: iTunes version 12 birthing problems (esp. "lost" files)

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Perfect car was built around Jan 1962 and released in the 1963 model year. It was called the Thunderbird. It also had great acoustics for music playback. :)
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
Post Reply