Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

[monkey man]

Does she know that Logic has an awesome built in help system? You can mouse over almost anything, hit shift-? and it will go straight to the appropriate help page. Most of the help pages are fully cross-linked and have a good amount of pertinent information.

DP's manual is one of the best written DAW manuals, but I would love to have Logic Pro X's help system any day.

We used to have help balloons way back in the day in DP. A little "speech balloon" like you'd see in comics popped up when you hovered the mouse over something you wanted info for and hit, I think, Command. It was fantastic, and the most immediately-accessible system I've seen to date.

Mind you, it seems so long ago now I can't help but wonder if it was all a dream...

All those times I brought it up I was thinking of the app's ability to attract new users. In light of iLogicAL's offerings, along with those of a few other DAWs, it was surely no contest, especially for someone new to the game who perhaps didn't own or couldn't afford many hardware or software synths.

I understand the marketing part, but is it really a black and white situation though? If VI's are the make/break point, can't you get MainStage routed into DP if you really must have the Logic VI's? For $29.99 at that which includes the EXS24.

Hey Billy.

Firstly, I've only just heard about MS recently in this forum. Perhaps it's 'cause I've been out of the loop for several years. Dunno. I'll have to Wiki it one day and find out what it is.

Secondly, I was referring all the way back to DP5 when our "special" lil' suite of instruments arrived. I banged on about it through DP5 and 6, and have been AWOL / MIA for most of DP7 and 8 in two large chunks of a few years each. If MS existed back then, I certainly didn't catch a mention of it. In fact, I'm pretty certain I was waxin' lyrical about this glaring omission (no VIs at all) in the DP4 and 4.5 days.

It was obvious to me, and bear in mind I'll only be buying my very first non-MOTU plugs and a VI late this or early next year, that to anyone on a tight budget who's looking at a first DAW (a huge chunk of the market, no doubt), especially if he or she doesn't own hardware or 3rd-party plugs (and why would he or she if it's a first DAW I'm talking about, except in rare circumstances?), DP would, based on this critical factor alone, lose out big-time to CueBalls, PooStools Lite, iLogicAL, PooDeo Bum... I mean, One, Sneaker, Jive, Treason, Tooty Fruity Hoops and, well, every damned DAW I can think of, frankly. This is why I brought it up in every "feature request" thread during those years.

The fact that we all knew DP was and has always been "pro" means nothing in this context. My humble and passionate opinion was, and still is, that if you want to maximise sales you ignore those newbie startup young punks at your peril; they're the pros of tomorrow, and the loyal, high-paying customers too. IMHO.

Sorry I sound agitated. I've re-read this post and the response below to Stoivo and mellowing the construction appears to be beyond my capabilities right now. I had my first animal product this year a few hours ago (organic eggs, boiled), so it's difficult to ignore the coincidence of my feelin' testy (so rare it just don't happen!) with said dietetic indulgence. Excuses aside, I truly am sorry, and to you too, Stoivo, if you're reading this.

If VI's are the make/break point, can't you get MainStage routed into DP if you really must have the Logic VI's? For $29.99 at that which includes the EXS24.

Yes you can. I do that with EXS in Logic a lot. I do find it more difficult to set up with mainstage. But your point remains. If the attraction is the VIs, just get the VIs. Cheap as borscht.

Seems this is relevant today, Bays. I cannot argue with you or Billy on this as I'm totally in the dark.

However, nobody, and I mean, nobody mentioned anything of the sort through the years I referred to above, those heady days of DP5 and 6 and even the period prior to this where we (DP) sported the only DAW, PooStools excepted I think, that boasted zero instruments. The response, as I said in another post, was always that it didn't matter 'cause anyone who's serious about VIs would buy 3rd-party ones anyway, which is all well and good if you've "got the dough to blow in one go". Not relevant to a newbie starter; he or she just wants to know how much he or she can get done today, all the while being fully aware that 3rd-party purchases may be required in the fullness of time in order to fill gaps specific to his or her tastes.

I've wasted far too much time singing this song over the years now that I think of it. All my fault. Surely there are better things to do at 6AM, like... sleep... and dream of DP9 and all its sparkly modelling and... VI plug-ins!

Sorry if I'm coming across cranky. Fingers burnin' from cold, eyes burnin' from glare of monitor and brain burnin' from repetitive-task (typin') burn-in! All that said, my money's still on the eggs.

Love you both. You know that. Cheers, Unicorn brothers.

[billf]

Secondly, I was referring all the way back to DP5 when our "special" lil' suite of instruments arrived. I banged on about it through DP5 and 6, and have been AWOL / MIA for most of DP7 and 8 in two large chunks of a few years each. If MS existed back then, I certainly didn't catch a mention of it. In fact, I'm pretty certain I was waxin' lyrical about this glaring omission (no VIs at all) in the DP4 and 4.5 days.

Hey Nicky,

My response above was not so much directed at your comment in particular, but more in general terms. I was thinking out loud, so to speak.

Anyway, all too often I hear the argument from people "I really like DP 8 but Logic has all the awesome VI's and content."

It's not so much that they love Logic as a DAW, but they look at the content that is bundled in it and drool. I get that, but it's a fairly meaningless criteria for making a purchase decision when much of the bundled Logic content is included in MainStage 3 for a fraction of the cost of Logic, and could be utilized in DP as Bayswater confirmed.

I mean if a person loves the DAW functionality of Logic, that's one thing. But in my experience, that often isn't the case.

That said, I completely agree with you that MOTU would likely sell more copies of DP if they did bundle their content (which they have with their UVI partnership) with the DAW. But that is their decision. All we can do is point out to people who are on the fence that MainStage 3 is a content option for the VI's, and it can be made to work with DP.

BTW, I totally understand the animal protein effect, been there, done that too. So no worries.

[mikehalloran]

Logic Studio 8 & 9 included Main Stage 1, then 2.

Main Stage 3 did not become a separate product until Logic Studio broke apart. Before that, the only way to get any of those was to buy Logic Studio.

This happened after DP 7 was released.

There were threads and workarounds to make the Apple VIs work in DP 5 and 6 if you had Logic Studio. I don't recall how nor do I remember if any worked.

The easiest way nowadays is to access the EXS24 libraries is through MachFive3 – there were some growing pains but that is solid now. Since I have that, I have not explored other ways that may or may not work.

[Michael Canavan]

Using either MainStage or Logic plug ins in DP involves two applications:
Sound flower and the IAC Driver in OSX's Audio MIDI Setup. Sound flower is available for free through Rouge Amoeba, Makers of Audio Highjack. https://www.rogueamoeba.com/freebies/soundflower/

The IAC Driver passes MIDI between Logic/Mainstage and DP, Sounflower passes audio through.
If you want to go further IAC will sync Logic and DP so tempo synced LFOs etc. work. It's not a total pain, pretty much like using ReWire.

Obviously if you're just wanting the EXS library and own Kontakt or MachFive 3 I would just use them in those samplers like Mike Suggests.

[mhschmieder]

I always delete my EXS and HAL files when I buy sample libraries. It's a force of habit from back when disc space was expensive and even patches (vs. samples) could eat up too much space. And of course some patches include the samples anyway.

Even last week I bought a new library that came with EXS patches and I deleted them all. I figure why stop now? Even if Apple upgrades their built-in instruments, the fact that none of them can be unbundled from Logic Pro X means they have a limited market and also have severe limitations regarding workflow and especially collaboration.

So I just can't see there being any likelihood of regrets over deleting EXS and HALion (Steinberg) patches (I try each version of HALion and still hate it). Kontakt, MachFive, and Yellow Tools Engine are enough for me.

[mhschmieder]

Ok I see what you're getting at. But will this save you from edit chores? The phrases using velocity are not necessarily going to sound right when the velocity values are converted to a CC value.

Yeah, I know, but I'm really good at MIDI editing and no one can guess which tracks started as notation and which ones were played live and/or tweaked from live MIDI tracking. I've been at this so long now that I barely have to think about it when I need to scale, stretch, filter, convert, or otherwise modify MIDI information of any sort and or "humanize" or "swing" it just the right amount. I treat it like audio and edit it about the same way most of the time.

In some ways, I think Aftertouch to CC is even more critical, because it is more directly equivalent to what one might have done with EXP or MOD, yet it isn't a CC so it's difficult to find tools that can convert.

Speaking of which, I was wondering why recent live-tracked MIDI had no AT info and found it had somehow gotten shut off at a global level in DP. Then I realized I probably did this on purpose and forgot to set it back. The reason I mention this is that DP slows to a crawl as soon as I enable Mono AT, much less Poly AT -- even at high buffer settings and only one track enabled. It especially gets jumpy when trying to scroll the MIDI Event list to filter, edit, etc.

[Michael Canavan]

I always delete my EXS and HAL files when I buy sample libraries. It's a force of habit from back when disc space was expensive and even patches (vs. samples) could eat up too much space. And of course some patches include the samples anyway.

Even last week I bought a new library that came with EXS patches and I deleted them all. I figure why stop now? Even if Apple upgrades their built-in instruments, the fact that none of them can be unbundled from Logic Pro X means they have a limited market and also have severe limitations regarding workflow and especially collaboration.

So I just can't see there being any likelihood of regrets over deleting EXS and HALion (Steinberg) patches (I try each version of HALion and still hate it). Kontakt, MachFive, and Yellow Tools Engine are enough for me.

The EXS file format is very easily translatable, the only thing unique about the EXS really is the filter settings, so as far as translating to other formats it's the most likely to do well. It would be more useful obviously if you had some sort of political reason for not owning Kontakt.

[monkey man]

Logic Studio 8 & 9 included Main Stage 1, then 2.

Main Stage 3 did not become a separate product until Logic Studio broke apart. Before that, the only way to get any of those was to buy Logic Studio.

This happened after DP 7 was released.

There were threads and workarounds to make the Apple VIs work in DP 5 and 6 if you had Logic Studio. I don't recall how nor do I remember if any worked.

This is exactly the timeframe I suggested over which I pushed for a decent VI suite, 'though I did start a little earlier during DP4. Thank you Mike; I don't feel so silly now.

Bottom line: You had to buy Logic to get the instruments.

BTW, I totally understand the animal protein effect, been there, done that too. So no worries.

You're a gem, Billy. Thanks mate.

Back to "normal" now, although it did take a few days.

[iGirl]

... Had MOTU announced that MachFive (and it's VI library) was going to be included with DP9 from this point forward, I would have passed on Logic.

Oh man, girl!

I wish I could say something, but I can't. Came close a month ago during a heated debate in another thread... very close.

Nothing's certain at the best of times these days, but you just may find that you needn't have pulled the trigger quite when you did. Mind you, if DP9 takes another 6 months to appear, you could hardly blame yourself.

OK, well DP9 is shipping and it's pretty much what was announced/expected without any surprise extras. I'm not really feeling like I missed out on anything at the moment, but it did arrive a bit quicker than I expected.

[Robert Randolph]

... Had MOTU announced that MachFive (and it's VI library) was going to be included with DP9 from this point forward, I would have passed on Logic.

Oh man, girl!

I wish I could say something, but I can't. Came close a month ago during a heated debate in another thread... very close.

Nothing's certain at the best of times these days, but you just may find that you needn't have pulled the trigger quite when you did. Mind you, if DP9 takes another 6 months to appear, you could hardly blame yourself.

OK, well DP9 is shipping and it's pretty much what was announced/expected without any surprise extras. I'm not really feeling like I missed out on anything at the moment, but it did arrive a bit quicker than I expected.

There were lots of surprise extras for me! The small changelog posted had a lot of big wins IMO.

Though I can see that it wouldn't be as exciting for a new user.

[billf]

Back to "normal" now, although it did take a few days.

That's good to hear Nicky. I used to scoff at the notion, but it's finally dawning on me how important diet is to feeling good.

Anyway, now with the arrival of DP 9, the VI situation has shifted with the bundling of MX4. One challenge remaining is to determine if we can somehow persuade the MOTU powers-that-be to consider including MachFive in a future release of DP.

[billf]

OK, well DP9 is shipping and it's pretty much what was announced/expected without any surprise extras. I'm not really feeling like I missed out on anything at the moment, but it did arrive a bit quicker than I expected.

There were lots of surprise extras for me! The small changelog posted had a lot of big wins IMO.

+1

Absolutely!

[iGirl]

Fair enough, there are some surprises then, but the implication was there that maybe, just maybe, MachFive was going to be added in as part of it - or a steeply discounted bundle option or something. Maybe it was just wishful thinking in my reading between the lines...

[bayswater]

Yes, that was wishful thinking. A few people thought that would be a good idea. But I guess none of them work for motu. There's nothing wrong with using logic if that's what you end up with. The latest versions are quite usable and people manage to make music with it. There's also nothing wrong with having both.

[monkey man]

Fair enough, there are some surprises then, but the implication was there that maybe, just maybe, MachFive was going to be added in as part of it - or a steeply discounted bundle option or something. Maybe it was just wishful thinking in my reading between the lines...

You read that correctly, iGirl. I'm at least as disappointed as you seem to be that more wasn't thrown in; I was reliably told by "someone" that at the very least a "stripped-down" version of the sampler would appear. I promised not to tell. I probably shouldn't have even said this, but who knows, perhaps one day...

Back to "normal" now, although it did take a few days.

That's good to hear Nicky. I used to scoff at the notion, but it's finally dawning on me how important diet is to feeling good.

Anyway, now with the arrival of DP 9, the VI situation has shifted with the bundling of MX4. One challenge remaining is to determine if we can somehow persuade the MOTU powers-that-be to consider including MachFive in a future release of DP.

Thank you, Billy.

Yes, well, I volunteer you to put apply the blowtorch to the Gods of MOTU.