Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

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Michael Canavan
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Michael Canavan »

Guitar Gaz wrote: I cannot understand why anyone would want to record on one long linear sequence unless they have completely composed and arranged all sections of a song or piece beforehand - I ain't no Mozart so I need to break things down - into Chunks if you like.

So Vision was superb at sequences and subsequences, DP has Chunks which are a bit clunkier (you have to select a chunk to work on it with a few seconds delay, in Vision you kept them all open and just clicked onto the one you wanted for instant editing). However DP can be used this way - and interestingly the one feature Reason brought in a few years ago was Blocks - which gives you the ability to have lots of - gulp! - separate sequences you can work on and eventually join in a larger Song type sequence.

I am now hearing that Logic X which I was looking at trying (the price is so cheap really) doesn't do separate sequences, chunks, or blocks - one of the reasons I abandoned Garageband as even a basic scratchpad for quick ideas was this single project prison. Why would anyone want to record that way unless they were just used to it? To me it makes recording and composing just more difficult - might as well go back to multi-track tape like the studio I used to work in during the 1970's.

I don't care what anyone says - its natural to work in separate sequences or chunks - songwriters come up with a verse maybe or a chorus first, and then put a song together bit by bit. You can do that in a linear fashion but its much easier breaking it down. I suppose classical pieces would prefer a linear approach in developing - although I would still have separate chunks for 1st Movement etc. To me, and my father who was an old school type of musical arranger with the Bee Gees and others, the technological breakthrough of sequencers freed up composition and recording. I am looking now at his original Roland MSQ-700 sequencer, the Linn Drum, and his DX7 with which he embraced the new way of doing things. And me too having worked in a 1970's studio with 16 track tape.

Don't think I'll bother then with Logic......
Immediately what comes to mind is track automation and soft synths. Track automation is dead easy compared to assigning MIDI to a soft synth, and the resolution is higher.

If you use Chunks to write with you're going to want to use V-Racks, and V-Racks do not do track automation. If you use a sampler like Kontakt then it's not a big deal but plenty of soft synths out there do not do MIDI automation that well, and they all work beautifully with track automation. The reason for this is simple, every other sequencer out there besides DP is essentially a linear track sequencer.
It's not at all that bad in DP though, If I want to work with track automation during the writing process I just write in a single "Chunk" and use a sequence, scratch sequence workflow in Chunks. Though for this writing style the other DAWs concepts of MIDI to a single VI makes much more sense, especially if it's not a multi tumbrel instrument, less clutter in the arrangement. Other things make sense as well like the object oriented MIDI approach.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by iGirl »

I've been looking around and doing some of my own comparisons, but it's difficult to fully grasp LPX without any trial. I was able to play with it in an Apple Store, and while it wasn't enough to really see everything, there were some things that seem nicer, and some things that were a bit confusing.
I can open files all the way back to 1986 or 1987, when I first started using DP
I wasn't sure if this would work or not - I'm glad to hear someone say it is so... This is great!
MOTU supports DP better than Apple supports Logic. I doubt anyone at Apple has ever helped a Logic user with a problem. You're pretty much dependent on experienced users on forums.
Thi is what I've found as well as a better community in general for peer to peer support.
one area where DP could use improvement in UI, it's with font options. Sometimes they are quite small, almost too small.
This is one significant difference - I found Logic Pro X far easier on the eyes comparatively. In DP it's either use 2-4x magnifying/reader glasses or change your system monitor resolution to get larger fonts :-/

In DP, Command/Arrows zooms in/out of Audio/MIDI - but it's not nearly as fast/intuitive as the two finger pinch zooming (Magic Trackpad) in LPX/Reeper and probably others. Hope that shows up in DP9.

LPX comes with the ESX24 sampler, a TON of sounds, and the virtual drummers. The iPad remote app for it looks cool too.

As far as the "odd" DAW comments, I suppose I have to find LPX far more odd to get around in than DP. Maybe it's because I have an analog background, where the post reel to reel generation probably doesn't conceptualize recording in the same way I do. I never even used chunks in DP to be honest. I just recorded in a linear fashion and used extra recorded parts on different tracks - punch in/out - or - copy/paste for various repeating sections. More importantly - as I matured in production I more appreciated the nuances of not duplicating anything but actually having unique performances for repeat sections. Each to their own, this is just another perspective, not to open up the debate again.
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bayswater
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by bayswater »

iGirl wrote:This is one significant difference - I found Logic Pro X far easier on the eyes comparatively. In DP it's either use 2-4x magnifying/reader glasses or change your system monitor resolution to get larger fonts :-/
I'd agree if the Logic UI didn't place light grey characters on dark grey backgrounds. It really needs some sort of colour control a la DP.
iGirl wrote:LPX comes with the ESX24 sampler, a TON of sounds, and the virtual drummers.
Also available in MainStage for much less money.
iGirl wrote:The iPad remote app for it looks cool too.
Yes, I wish this would give MOTU a little inspiration.
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Robert Randolph
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Robert Randolph »

iGirl wrote: In DP, Command/Arrows zooms in/out of Audio/MIDI - but it's not nearly as fast/intuitive as the two finger pinch zooming (Magic Trackpad) in LPX/Reeper and probably others. Hope that shows up in DP9.
There's a lot more ways to zoom in DP8 than that. Try the zoom tool (hit Z to select it) and simply select what you want to zoom to.

With the zoom tool selected:
Shift-click to go back a zoom level. (or cmd-[ with any tool selected)
shift-control-click to go forward a zoom level. (or cmd-] with any tool selected)
Drag in the timeline to zoom only horizontally.

I find these things (which logic has similar functions) far more useful than pinch zooming. Usually you want to zoom to a specific phrase or soundbite to do something, then bounce back out. In DP you would hit:

Code: Select all

z, select the area 
-- do stuff -- 
z if needed, shift-click OR just cmd-[. 
It's really fast, and if you need to go back to that area again, hit cmd-] or z then shift-ctrl-click.

Then you have things like saved zoom levels, zoom to selection (opt-cmd-s), zoom history tricks and abuse of zoom level along with edit grid resolution. Great tools for efficiently and accurately moving around your project.

Logic Pro X also has some great tools for zooming that far surpass the ability to pinch to zoom. I even think Logic's zoom tools/shortcuts are nicer than DP's. It's worth looking into what both programs really can do, since IMO pinch to zoom is a quite inefficient mechanic for zooming.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by iGirl »

There's a lot more ways to zoom in DP8 than that
Of course, thanks again for the extra info - so many shortcuts to learn that aren't so obvious on first inspection. I just need to start looking at the larger picture and not worry about the UI so much I guess. Anything that's there can be learned. :-)
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by BRW »

I have both Logic X (LPX) and DP8.

I like many things with DP, for instance: built-in pitch correction, audio editing in general; chunks/sequences; the multi-window approach; even the different skins. The MOTU fx plug-ins also sound great.

On the other hand, I also don't understand why is everything still so teeny tiny (either that, or you're constantly zooming or moving the window scrollbar). I was hoping DP9 might bring a change to this... Why can't the Tracks window look a bit more like the "Arrange" style view in Logic/Cubase/Sonar? Why is MIDI data still displayed as those "crow's feet" in Sequence window, and not big colored blocks like it is in all other DAWs? I also have to say that I don't like the idea of needing to always use two tracks for a software synth (meaning - a MIDI track + instrument track).

In LPX, for someone working mostly with audio instruments (software synth plug-ins) and MIDI, its "Arrange" type layout works the best. I feel like you can just sort of get "to it". I love the new sound library, the new software synths and especially the new acoustic drum kits. Mainstage 3 is fab. You don't really have to bother with Environments any more. The onboard fx plugins sound very decent.

I dislike the dark color skin (which you can't change) and the fact that all new tracks still default to a green color for MIDI and blue for audio. Implementation for external MIDI (hardware synths) isn't great. Audio editing is still a bit of a fumble. Flex Audio isn't great.
Shooshie wrote:DP? Odd? Logic is odd.
<SNIP>
What's odd is a single track that is an instrument, a MIDI track, and an audio track all rolled into one, with a little picture of the instrument on it. That seems more like some kind of PlaySkool toy. Pull the string and hear the MIDI loop!
Shooshie (from different post) wrote:Suffice to say that my opinion of Logic and its users at the time was not on par with DP's users. To some extent that has changed. Stereotyping only goes so far before it breaks.
:shake: Are you honestly trying to say that Logic users/composers are somehow inferior to DP users/composers? Based on some one random guy you knew? Especially since you don't have any experience with Logic since version 8?
Guitar Gaz wrote: I cannot understand why anyone would want to record on one long linear sequence unless they have completely composed and arranged all sections... I am now hearing that Logic X doesn't do separate sequences, chunks, or blocks - this single project prison.
This is one comment that seems prevalent here. Yes, LPX doesn't do blocks/chunks/sequences, but I don't really understand the problem here - it's not like you have to do a straight "piano roll" from start to finish. I agree that having multiple versions or sequences (or mixes) inside one project file is very convenient.
Last edited by James Steele on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by Moderator to break up combined quote for accuracy
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Michael Canavan
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Michael Canavan »

BRW wrote:
Guitar Gaz wrote: I cannot understand why anyone would want to record on one long linear sequence unless they have completely composed and arranged all sections... I am now hearing that Logic X doesn't do separate sequences, chunks, or blocks - this single project prison.
This is one comment that seems prevalent here. Yes, LPX doesn't do blocks/chunks/sequences, but I don't really understand the problem here - it's not like you have to do a straight "piano roll" from start to finish. I agree that having multiple versions or sequences (or mixes) inside one project file is very convenient.
The main thing it ignores is that object oriented MIDI means that Chunks can be replicated in a single linear sequence. It's dammed near impossible to describe or explain the advantages of it if you haven't spent serious amounts of time using it.

There are of course advantages to having all your MIDI data in a single track not separated, but honestly the most frustrating limitation in DP for me is the parsed MIDI in the Track Overview, it's a vastly inferior way of showing MIDI as chunks of data, to what Objects do in Logic, Live etc. The thing is with the Sequence Editor and the MIDI editor I think they're perfect the way they are, but the TO is for grabbing data at a macro level and I would rather glue and slice my parsed MIDI myself than have what even in simple pop music is seemingly random parses. Plus, they often visually overlap into measure they simply do not exist in at various zoom settings? :mumble:

Everyone likes to go off about how Logics Arrange Page locks you into object oriented MIDI but we all forget that DP does objected oriented MIDI to a degree in the TO, just really badly. Again the saddest part about this to me is if they designed the TO to allow you to slice and glue these objects / parses, DP would have nearly every type of visual and UI feedback for DAWs covered in one fell swoop. The limitation to object oriented MIDI in other DAWs is that it also affects the way you view DATA in the MIDI editors, which IMO is where that separation becomes a limitation instead of a feature.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Shooshie »

BRW wrote: :shake: Are you honestly trying to say that Logic users/composers are somehow inferior to DP users/composers? Based on some one random guy you knew? Especially since you don't have any experience with Logic since version 8?
Are you honestly dispossessed of your wits and rationality? Based on some one random quote of mine you singled out? Especially since you apparently do not know me or understand in the least what I was saying?

There doesn't seem to be an appropriate emoticon for your post. Oh wait. And this is the first time I've ever used this one:
:vomit:

Bad boy, BRW. Bad boy.

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Last edited by Shooshie on Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Guitar Gaz wrote:...

I cannot understand why anyone would want to record on one long linear sequence unless they have completely composed and arranged all sections of a song or piece beforehand - I ain't no Mozart so I need to break things down - into Chunks if you like.
......
Really? I can think of a whole bunch of reasons to do that. Aside from scientific and forensic applications, there are live recording applications during rehearsals and performances. In my own case, I sometimes have to create two, even three-hour improvisational scores and/or sketches on piano or synths or both. These can be MIDI, audio or a combination of both.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by bayswater »

BRW wrote:Why can't the Tracks window look a bit more like the "Arrange" style view in Logic/Cubase/Sonar? Why is MIDI data still displayed as those "crow's feet" in Sequence window, and not big colored blocks like it is in all other DAWs?
The short answer: because the Track window is not an arrange window like Logic/Cubase/Sonar, at least not for me. (neither is the main Logic window -- they stopped calling it that, and in Cubase there are parts for arranging, and not an arrange window).

What Logic does in one window, DP does in three. That can be efficiency for some, but a compromise, lack of precision and flexibility for others. I have both, and had Cubase for years, and a load of other specialty apps. It's really waste of time asking: "App X is really great, why can't it be more like App Y?" Just use them for their strengths.

To get the most out of DP you have to get to the point where the shortcuts become second nature, and you have screens set up so you "know" where everything is, so you're not reading the tiny font anyway.

I'd have to say, though, Apple has done of good job of making Logic an easier (and less expensive) step for those who started with Garageband and want to do more. Still pretty buggy though.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by mikehalloran »

I'd have to say, though, Apple has done of good job of making Logic an easier (and less expensive) step for those who started with Garageband and want to do more. Still pretty buggy though.
Absolutely. The purpose of GarageBand / Logic and all the other Apple apps is to sell Apple computers. Easy and inexpensive for the average user is the point.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by BRW »

Shooshie wrote:
BRW wrote: :shake: Are you honestly trying to say that Logic users/composers are somehow inferior to DP users/composers? Based on some one random guy you knew? Especially since you don't have any experience with Logic since version 8?
Are you honestly dispossessed of your wits and rationality? Based on some one random quote of mine you singled out? Especially since you apparently do not know me or understand in the least what I was saying?

There doesn't seem to be an appropriate emoticon for your post. Oh wait. And this is the first time I've ever used this one:
:vomit:

Bad boy, BRW. Bad boy.

Shooshie
And this is exactly why I hate this forum, hadn't posted in about a couple of years. Why do the moderators allow these kinds of hostile posts by a few individuals here is beyond me. :roll:
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Shooshie »

Ok, BRW, with a little less emotion.

I want you to read your post. Do you see what's wrong? I can't address your questions/assertions, because they're so twisted that I wouldn't know where to start. Compare to "when did you stop beating your wife?"

To get dragged into an argument so twisted and far removed from actual facts, or actual posts of mine, I'd have to quote and repost pages of stuff. I'm not interested in doing that for one guy who got it all wrong, and only needs go back and read it again, honestly this time, to figure out the facts. Next time try a question that's not hot-wired to accuse someone of something they never said.

Oh, and the short answer would be "none of the above."

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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Robert Randolph »

BRW wrote:
Shooshie wrote:
BRW wrote: :shake: Are you honestly trying to say that Logic users/composers are somehow inferior to DP users/composers? Based on some one random guy you knew? Especially since you don't have any experience with Logic since version 8?
Are you honestly dispossessed of your wits and rationality? Based on some one random quote of mine you singled out? Especially since you apparently do not know me or understand in the least what I was saying?

There doesn't seem to be an appropriate emoticon for your post. Oh wait. And this is the first time I've ever used this one:
:vomit:

Bad boy, BRW. Bad boy.

Shooshie
And this is exactly why I hate this forum, hadn't posted in about a couple of years. Why do the moderators allow these kinds of hostile posts by a few individuals here is beyond me. :roll:
You twisted Shooshie's words then act innocent when he takes the bait. Pretty classic troll behaviour, but nevertheless annoying.

I too am surprised with the moderation at this forum sometimes. :roll:
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