Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

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Shooshie
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Shooshie »

mikehalloran wrote:I own Logic Pro 9 and X so that I can open other people's projects, export the sound files and MIDI data, import them into DP and get the work done.

I haven't updated since Logic 8 Studio. It's time to get X, though I'm not sure I'll ever use it. But at least I could reply to topics like this a little more accurately if I knew what changes had been made since version 8.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by bayswater »

Shooshie wrote:
mikehalloran wrote:I own Logic Pro 9 and X so that I can open other people's projects, export the sound files and MIDI data, import them into DP and get the work done.

I haven't updated since Logic 8 Studio. It's time to get X, though I'm not sure I'll ever use it. But at least I could reply to topics like this a little more accurately if I knew what changes had been made since version 8.
I use Logic for the same purpose, and occasionally as a slave to DP. But Logic X still seems to have a lot of bugs. I'll wait for the .1 update, and even then it might not be worth it. It looks a lot better, but the new features seem to be mostly about closing the gap between Logic and GarageBand, like prepackaged drum kits and drummer, "smart" control panels, etc, and a few catch up features.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Michael Canavan »

Logic is a good program, back in about 2002 I switched to it for a couple years.
A couple things:

Logic VS DP MIDI wise is not a black/white issue.
DP is much more straightforward about it than Logic, with much easier to use MIDI transforming features and a better window for editing MIDI controller messages. Multi instruments in DP are a breeze etc. MOTU for some reason though have never implemented two basic MIDI features found in nearly every other DAW, mute MIDI notes and the ability to constrain the keys/notes of a MIDI track to a range. Logic pre Apple takeover had some very powerful MIDI features that included things like being able to build an old school CV styled step sequencer directly into a track, but I think most of that is lost these days.

DP has very arguably much, much better comping and mixing features, more automation styles and the ability to save different mixes in the same open song, plus the ability to save different versions of the song in the same project. Logic has better audio time and pitch stretching. Logic's looping is easier to deal with.

I could go on but here's one from a more fundamental level. I'm not a big fan of unfair advantages. Logic being an Apple product is marketed and competes directly with smaller companies that rely on Apple and Microsoft OS's for their business. They market Logic for half the price or less than MOTU, Steinberg, Ableton, Digidesign etc. can sell their products for. Logic when it was Emagic who owned it cost $799 for the full version, and that didn't include all the more complex instruments and the convolution reverb. A guy I know locally paid over $2000 for all the instruments in Logic before Apple decided to bundle them in Logic and sell it for $200. Logic is a great program, but it has the advantage that Pro Tools has of being embedded in the market in the sense that people figure that because Apple own it, it's going to be solid etc. Which is not true at all, for me anyway DP has been more stable, and never with crippling work issues. Sure that stability means that some "new" feature will not happen yesterday in DP, but at 30 years old DP is a mature program that generally gets it right the first time with features that make sense.
I like Logic, not going to lie, but like others, Logic 8 is a version I have lying around here, and it won't even really work in Mountain Lion, I have to run through a bunch of hoops to get it to authorize every time I open it. Backwards compatibility is another area that DP wins out with, which is ironic considering I run OSX…
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by mikehalloran »

Logic 8 is a version I have lying around here, and it won't even really work in Mountain Lion, I have to run through a bunch of hoops to get it to authorize every time I open it...
You can get it to work at all in ML? There are quite a few on user and Apple support boards who'd like to know how.

The normal response is to update to 9.1 when it became Intel only and and 64/32bit, then update to 9.14 and later to be compatible with Lion through Software Update / App Store (PPC users are limited to Logic 9.02). Logic Pro X dropped 32bit support.

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2565

LP X is now up to 10.07. I see that they recently fixed a bug to allow 24bit processing on 12 core Macs. ?!?!? That waited till v.07 or was it introduced in .06? Either way, not a good thing when you are also the hardware company.

I noticed that I uninstalled Logic Studio 9. I don't recall doing that - oh well. I haven't had problems opening projects in X so that's good. I certainly don't want to reinstall 9 if I don't have to - I probably have 9.02 on my G4 if I need it.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Michael Canavan »

mikehalloran wrote:You can get it to work at all in ML? There are quite a few on user and Apple support boards who'd like to know how.
I copied the application over from my laptop running Snow Leopard. After that well, I have an XSKey dongle for Logic 4 through 8. You're supposed to be able to authorize the hard drive, but my experience is that I have to give the 8 serial while I have the XSKey plugged in every time I open Logic 8. Probably most people didn't jump on Logic before it went dongle-less, so they may not be able to authorize it at all on Mountain Lion? just a guess. I never bought an "App Store" version of Logic so…
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by wvandyck »

mikehalloran wrote:For many users, the inability to use VSTs in Logic is the deal killer. OTOH, the Logic/Final Cut/GarageBand user base is probably what keeps AU viable with developers.
The flexibility to use either plug-in type within the same project still amazes me. Very smart move on MOTU's part.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by profdraper »

FWIW: its not just vs. Logic, but any modern DAW for that matter- Pro Tools, Ableton Live, Cubase, Reason, Studio One, etc.

The main barrier to entry and/or more regular use (for me & other colleagues) is DP's graphic real estate, windows and fonts which are difficult to read and use easily. This is in direct comparison to all of the above which on the same screen(s) and resolution run and look absolutely fine. Boot DP, and its back to some squinting stone age. Sure, One can change the screen rez, but then this compromises all of the other apps. So, back and forth with different screen rezs trying to get a good fit. (OS X in particular, but also Win).

DP has a plethora of prefs. Why not design and add a couple of custom screen rezs /font sizes for different user prefs / VDU conditions? Again, the primary barrier to more consistent use for me.

Otherwise, I find it a no-brainer for feature comparison with the other usual DAWs, including Logic, in particular:
1) Chunks & their use in film composition, re-mix or live work (tho' song mode could do with an upgrade now); and
2) the V-Console. Nothing like these powerful features anywhere else.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by stubbsonic »

I completely agree about sizing/res/font-size. There are some areas of the interface that are a little fiddly. But I'm quite used to it.

I've found this with other apps I've recently tried where the developers make some "bold" choices about how small interface elements will be, and you are left to wonder what kind of display configuration(s) they have used in beta.

I would love to see even one additional interface mode/pref that just allowed a slight embiggening of the UI.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by billf »

Michael Canavan wrote: DP has very arguably much, much better comping and mixing features, more automation styles and the ability to save different mixes in the same open song, plus the ability to save different versions of the song in the same project. Logic has better audio time and pitch stretching. Logic's looping is easier to deal with.
I actually find the comping in Logic X to be very nice, and overall Logic is an excellent DAW. But I find using it for mixing can become a nightmare of sorts, and something I just don't like to deal with.

DP's comping is also very nice, but to me the mixing functions are far nicer in DP than those found in Logic X.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Michael Canavan »

billf wrote:
Michael Canavan wrote: DP has very arguably much, much better comping and mixing features, more automation styles and the ability to save different mixes in the same open song, plus the ability to save different versions of the song in the same project. Logic has better audio time and pitch stretching. Logic's looping is easier to deal with.
I actually find the comping in Logic X to be very nice, and overall Logic is an excellent DAW. But I find using it for mixing can become a nightmare of sorts, and something I just don't like to deal with.

DP's comping is also very nice, but to me the mixing functions are far nicer in DP than those found in Logic X.
Agreed. The only areas that I prefer Logic in are the little things. The event list is 'real time' compared to the way DP handles it, you can set ranges to a MIDI track, so you can have a couple different synths on different parts of the same MIDI controller, "Capture Last Take as Recording" is brilliant. To a degree I like having the single Arrange Page compared to breaking functions between the Track Overview and Sequence Editor, but the fact that Logic breaks functions between the Mixer and Environment is more annoying. I'm used to and work well with MIDI being all one long file now, but there are advantages to object oriented MIDI no doubt.

I'm one of those weirdos though that didn't really like the direction Apple was taking it. I liked it's quirkiness, mostly it was practical. For instance at least in v8 the Mixer and the Arrange Page are forced to obey each others hidden tracks, so hiding tracks in the Arrange you have no intention of automating hides them in the Mixer which is counter intuitive to a seasoned user, and "easy" for a beginner. They haven't 100% done this sort of unintentional dumbing down in Logic, but it made me think about DP again for sure.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by Gravity Jim »

They're both swell. But when I was using Logic exclusively I found that the audio handling just isn't as good as DP. I don't know enough about digital audio to explain the problem - it seemed that the audio wasn't really sample accurate, or that phase issues were introduced in some other way - but while Logic is great for throwing MIDI phrases together like Lego blocks, and includes a lot of cool instruments, to my ear the audio was not reliable, and sure as hell didn't sound as good as DP. My copy of Logic has been pretty much gathering dust since DP 8.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by billf »

Michael Canavan wrote:They haven't 100% done this sort of unintentional dumbing down in Logic, but it made me think about DP again for sure.
Apple does ship Logic X out with some sort of "basic mode" enabled, which is partly why it was derisively referred to it as "Garageband Pro" when it launched. So some of the dumbing down does seem to be intentional. Fortunately DP has not had to resort to such tactics, and makes me wonder what percentage of Logic users ever venture past the basic mode. Those are the types of things that can skew market numbers, but that is a different discussion.

In fact, the "basic mode" idea is one of the criticisms of Logic X in reviews. For example from SoS:
Before going any further, I should note that when you open Logic Pro X for the first time, you might not see all the commands you're expecting in the program. In what could be considered a slightly dubious move to make the program seem less overwhelming to newcomers, Apple have added an Advanced Tools mode that needs to be enabled to show features like the Event, Marker, Tempo and Signature Lists, or MIDI Draw and step input recording. There are also additional 'advanced' options for audio, surround, MIDI, control surfaces, score and advanced editing functionality. So the first thing you should do after loading Logic Pro X is to open the Advanced Preferences panel and make sure all of these options are enabled.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by bayswater »

The default mode for Logic X was there to provide a simple transition path for GB users, which was the obvious growth market for Logic. It gave them something they were likely to recognize so they weren't starting entirely from scratch. Previous Logic Pro users would have to be off the grid not to know they had to turn the advanced tools option on.
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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by frankf »

I just had a one on one DP workshop with a very experienced engineer who worked with only tape and ProTools. He wanted to know first about DP's signal path. He got that down after about 15 minutes and was amazed how much DP's routing, use of busses, aux tracks, v-racks were like a pro studio, v-racks in particular. Then I showed him how custom grouping and sub masters were implemented in DP and he was again impressed. He's coming back next week for more and to begin a mix. :)


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Re: Digital Performer Vs Logic Pro X

Post by artfarm1 »

Not to open the whole can of worms again, but...

I thinks DP puts out better sound, and many others thinks so as well.

I know, I know.... very subjective, etc......lots of arguments about nulling this and that and making sure that panning is the same, etc. etc.

Some very careful tests have been done, and DP has come out on top.

Anyways, I did my own tests, and to my ears, DP wins out.

For that reason, along with every else that MOTU does right, I'll always speak up for DP in my own humble way.
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