Who's Responsible?

The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other off topic discussion.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other matters outside deemed outside the scope of helping users make optimal use of MOTU hardware and software. Posts in other forums may be moved here at the moderators discretion. No politics or religion!!
Post Reply
User avatar
Dan Worley
Posts: 2778
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:03 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Northern CA

Who's Responsible?

Post by Dan Worley »

Who's responsible (MOTU or Apple) for Apple's Magic Trackpad's vertical scroll not working correctly in the Sequence Editor (and wherever else it doesn't work within DP)?

Whoever it is, it has got to be fixed. It's crazy that this has not been working correctly for this long! It's a basic feature, for gosh sakes.

Frustrating!!! :smash:
DP10.13
User avatar
buzzsmith
Posts: 3097
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Houston
Contact:

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by buzzsmith »

This probably doesn't apply, but I'm currently running a dual boot system.

Everything is still fine with DP 8.01 and 10.6.8.

The SSD has Mountain Lion and DP 8.06.

When booting up from the SSD, I was wondering why my Logitech mouse wasn't performing correctly. VERY slow horizontal scroll in the SE.

Then I realized that the Mac with ML didn't see or have the driver installed, so I "re-registered" the mouse and downloaded the driver.

That gave me the icon for the Logitech in System Preferences. Opened it up and set some parameters.

Now, it's fine.

Just throwing out a possible idea.

Buzzy
Early 2009 Mac Pro 4,1>5,1 3.33 GHz Hex Core Intel Xeon OS X 10.8.5 SSD (32 gigs RAM)
DP 9.51 PCI-424e / original 2408, 2408mkII, 24I/O, MTP-AV

Yamaha C7 Conservatory Grand
Hammond B-3 / Leslie 145
Focal Twin6 Be(s)

User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by mikehalloran »

If you have AppleCare, a tech can log in remotely, open Console and see what else is going on when it is acting up. Once you know, it can be dealt with. That's the first step.

Or you can. I have offered to look at Console reports. I only need the 20 or so lines immediately at and after it hiccups.

I've heard reports of defective trackpads causing such behavior but have no way of knowing if this is true - nor do I know how to test for this.

Are you using the native Bluetooth or a 3rd party receiver USB stick? If native, there are many sites that have instructions for installing a better antenna on the Mac Pro. This has helped a lot of people. If a 3rd party stick, is it Bluetooth 3.2 or later? Lots of those sticks are BT-2 which was never supported by Apple. Replacing them with the current Bluetooth 4 sticks fixes that.

Just my guess, but I think it's a MOTU problem only if it is affecting everybody - which it doesn't.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11925
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by bayswater »

mikehalloran wrote:Just my guess, but I think it's a MOTU problem only if it is affecting everybody - which it doesn't.
In 10.8.5 on my iMac this happens with some DP windows but not all of them. And it doesn't happen in most other application. As Shooshie noted, it is not affected by the presence of touch.

I'll check the console and see what it says when I try to scroll the affected windows.

Later that afternoon: There are no console messages appearing when scrolling windows in DP with the Apple trackpad.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by Shooshie »

mikehalloran wrote:If you have AppleCare, a tech can log in remotely, open Console and see what else is going on when it is acting up. Once you know, it can be dealt with. That's the first step.

I'll repeat what I told you a month or two ago: I studied the console for weeks, and never found any clue to the problem. There's a programming bug somewhere. It's that simple.

The strange thing is that the scrolling problem in DP seems only to be affecting the Magic Trackpad, and not the Magic Mouse. (that let's Bluetooth off the hook) I've seen similar scrolling problems in another app or two, but cannot remember which ones now. Other problems, such as the gestures in Safari apparently affected all trackpads, and it happened in some other programs, too, such as Zinio Reader (where you can get and read magazine subscriptions online), and I think my shortcuts for Preview stopped working as well. Strange things, but the problems either go back to the Magic Trackpad, all trackpads, or gestures.

I stopped keeping track of the subtle problems affecting Mavericks. It was apparent that it would do no good to track them, as they were not consistent enough to persuade Apple or MOTU to fix them, and there was no evidence of what was happening in the Console, so it became a matter of "hearsay." I've got no time for such crap.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by mikehalloran »

There's a programming bug somewhere. It's that simple.
So you keep saying.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11925
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by bayswater »

Shooshie wrote:The strange thing is that the scrolling problem in DP seems only to be affecting the Magic Trackpad, and not the Magic Mouse.
I can confirm -- almost. It also happens on my MBP's built in trackpad running 10.9.3, as well as the iMac with a Magic Trackpad under 10.8.5. I've tried the scroll wheel on several mouses -- Apple, Microsoft, and Wacom, USB, Bluetooth and old wireless types. I've tried a load of applications, and it works on all of them except DP. It only happens with the trackpad and only on some, not all, DP windows. If I scroll very slowly, it works -- sort of. Otherwise the motion is jerky and tentative, and sometimes it will scroll rapidly horizontally. The SE, MIDI, and Mixer windows are the worst. The TO is not so bad, and other windows seem fine.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
Dan Worley
Posts: 2778
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:03 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Northern CA

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by Dan Worley »

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. I still don't know who to blame, so I'll just blame everyone. :lol:

I have noticed some improvements with the Magic Trackpad in the Finder and other places, but it still gets hung up and confused at times. Just a snag of a few milliseconds can be enough to ruin the flow and make it a bad experience.

I don't think it's anything wrong with just my particular system (though I'm always looking for a fix). It seems to be a fairly common problem for Magic Trackpad users. But in DP's SE, the vertical scrolling is remarkably bad. It has actually become unusable for me. But the Magic Trackpad is not the only device that has that problem, so there may be something in DP that is exacerbating the problem, and maybe finding that would help find a fix for the other areas.

I'm naive enough to hope MOTU and Apple can work together and find out what the heck is causing this.
DP10.13
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by Shooshie »

mikehalloran wrote:
There's a programming bug somewhere. It's that simple.
So you keep saying.
Meaning?
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4601
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by stubbsonic »

bayswater wrote: It also happens on my MBP's built in trackpad running 10.9.3, as well as the iMac with a Magic Trackpad under 10.8.5. ... It only happens with the trackpad and only on some, not all, DP windows. If I scroll very slowly, it works -- sort of. Otherwise the motion is jerky and tentative, and sometimes it will scroll rapidly horizontally. The SE, MIDI, and Mixer windows are the worst. The TO is not so bad, and other windows seem fine.
I haven't checked things as carefully or thoroughly, but this seems like the same experience I am having on my RMBP with the same OS and the built-in trackpad.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11925
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by bayswater »

I've had another run at Console messages. On launching DP, opening a project and scrolling around, I'm seeing failed attempts by DP to load Quicktime and the Mackie console (which I think Mike was seeing), some problems with the Dock, something related to suppressed UI updates, and a USB message.

Nothing related to the trackpad or scrolling in DP. Console output is below if anyone can spot the culprit.

20140608 9:21:07.889 AM Digital Performer[54190]: Error loading /Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/MOTU Audio Export/QuickTime Export.bundle/Contents/MacOS/QuickTime Export: dlopen(/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/MOTU Audio Export/QuickTime Export.bundle/Contents/MacOS/QuickTime Export, 262): no suitable image found. Did find:
/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/MOTU Audio Export/QuickTime Export.bundle/Contents/MacOS/QuickTime Export: mach-o, but wrong architecture
20140608 9:21:10.288 AM Dock[44604]: find_shared_window: Invalid depth WindowID 0x5ef
20140608 9:21:11.506 AM Dock[44604]: find_shared_window: Invalid depth WindowID 0x601
20140608 9:21:24.854 AM Digital Performer[54190]: Error loading /Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/MOTU Control Surface/CueMixMackieSurfaces.bundle/Contents/MacOS/CueMixMackieSurfaces: dlopen(/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/MOTU Control Surface/CueMixMackieSurfaces.bundle/Contents/MacOS/CueMixMackieSurfaces, 262): no suitable image found. Did find:
/Library/Audio/Plug-Ins/MOTU Control Surface/CueMixMackieSurfaces.bundle/Contents/MacOS/CueMixMackieSurfaces: mach-o, but wrong architecture
20140608 9:21:29.947 AM Dock[44604]: find_shared_window: Invalid depth WindowID 0x62e
20140608 9:23:31.208 AM WindowServer[44522]: disable_update_timeout: UI updates were forcibly disabled by application "Digital Performer" for over 1.00 seconds. Server has re-enabled them.
20140608 9:23:31.293 AM WindowServer[44522]: common_reenable_update: UI updates were finally reenabled by application "Digital Performer" after 1.09 seconds (server forcibly re-enabled them after 1.00 seconds)
20140608 9:24:16.252 AM Dock[44604]: find_shared_window: Invalid depth WindowID 0x696
20140608 9:25:54.805 AM com.apple.usbmuxd[44537]: _SendAttachNotification Device 78:3a:84:4f:09:56@fe80::7a3a:84ff:fe4f:956._apple-mobdev2._tcp.local. has already appeared on interface 5. Suppressing duplicate attach notification.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21075
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by James Steele »

I've run into problems before with slow horizontal scrolling in DP8/Mavericks. I was using the tilt wheel on a Logitech mouse. I noticed that if I hovered the mouse cursor over the horizontal scroll bar at the bottom of DP's window, it scrolled fine. If I hovered the cursor over the data area of the window, it went slow.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
buzzsmith
Posts: 3097
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Houston
Contact:

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by buzzsmith »

James Steele wrote:I've run into problems before with slow horizontal scrolling in DP8/Mavericks. I was using the tilt wheel on a Logitech mouse. I noticed that if I hovered the mouse cursor over the horizontal scroll bar at the bottom of DP's window, it scrolled fine. If I hovered the cursor over the data area of the window, it went slow.
Exactly what I experienced!

I resolved it by "re-registering" the mouse and downloading the latest driver so that I could access it in System Preferences.

This is with my ML SSD boot drive. It was working (and still is) just fine with my 10.6.8 / DP 8.01 system.

Buzzy
Early 2009 Mac Pro 4,1>5,1 3.33 GHz Hex Core Intel Xeon OS X 10.8.5 SSD (32 gigs RAM)
DP 9.51 PCI-424e / original 2408, 2408mkII, 24I/O, MTP-AV

Yamaha C7 Conservatory Grand
Hammond B-3 / Leslie 145
Focal Twin6 Be(s)

User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21075
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Who's Responsible?

Post by James Steele »

Yep. I've been okay too lately. I went back to Logitech's mouse software instead of SteerMouse. SteerMouse seemed to need reestablishing connection too often. Logitech recently updated its control panel and it's much better now in Mavericks.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
Post Reply