VST3 would really help DP regardless of other issues

[Steve Steele]

MOTU should add VST3 support (a very popular format for one important thing - VEPro), to DP Mac and Windows for the young students, collage students, and semi-pro and pro alike.

MOTU would benefit greatly in Europe where Cubase reigns. Now that DP runs on Windows, (and if it had VST3 support), DP would be ripe in Europe.

Over here, there are a lot more Macs, and this would make it the only big Mac-based DAW that has VST3 support in the film industry.

This is a growing market. VEPro is very popular. VEPro works best with DAWs using VST3. Using AU in VEPro is not great. The Event Input plugin is not a great solution either.

The addition of VST3 to DP, along with the Windows version would make big news for DP, as the music industry media seems to focus on these things these days.

I don't care about VST3's low numbers. And it doesn't matter that most developers don't code for VST3. The only thing that matters is that DP would be using VST3 in VEPro. That's all that matters. And it would give DP yet another reason to be someones DAW of choice.

DP

[James Steele]

I don't care about VST3's low numbers. And it doesn't matter that most developers don't code for VST3.

Umm, okay. Seems like those are pretty important factors. Apparently MOTU isn't the only developer that's hesitant to support VST3.

[James Steele]

By the way, since this is really more of a criticism of a company policy of MOTU and call to action for the company to do something, this really belongs in the OT/MOTU Theoretical forum. Moved.

[mikehalloran]

VST3 support (a very popular format f

I don't care about VST3's low numbers.

It's how popular?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

This isn't the first thread on the issue - for DP or any other company that hasn't adopted it.

You might find this Cakewalk thread informative:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/What39s-VST3- ... 61456.aspx

This comment in particular:

VST3 has been slow to be adopted. Plugin developers don't want to invest the effort because of limited demand, the fact that creating a VST3 version of a plugin requires a substantial rewrite, and that VST3 offers virtually no new functionality that would help them enhance their products. In short, it's a lot of work for almost zero payback.

So why does VST3 even exist, if it's not a step forward? Steinberg's arrogance, mostly. Their original VST spec filled a void and quickly became a standard. It wasn't nearly as versatile or powerful as other standards but it was platform-agnostic and that was the real need it fulfilled. Thanks to VST, plugin developers could write for a larger market and we all benefited from low-cost software. This success made Steinberg think that they ruled the DAW world and whatever they offered up everyone would follow. Such has not been the case for VST3.

The fact is we aren't missing out on anything. VST2.4 can do anything VST3 can do. The only VST3-only products out there are from Steinberg and Yamaha (a big mistake on Yamaha's part, IMO). If they were really out to improve the standard, Steinberg should have created VST2.5 and maintained backward compatibility, as they have done in the past. That's what you do when you're in charge of a real "standard".

But they are flexing their muscle as the marketplace leader, especially now that they are under the wing of the behemoth that is Yamaha. They put support for VST3 into Cubase before the specification was even released, assuring that only they had it. At that moment VST3 ceased to be a standard and became a proprietary technology. It's no wonder the rest of the audio software industry took offense and collectively decided not to play Steinberg's game.

Microsoft plays a similar game with developers, arbitrarily changing the rules to suit their own obscure agenda. There is an old joke among programmers: Q) How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? A) None. They just change the standard to "dark". Steinberg wants to be (or already imagines itself to be) the Microsoft of audio software.

[billf]

Whenever I see one of these "MOTU Should" threads, I can't help but wonder if folks ever send the info to MOTU itself (where it might make a difference):

http://www.motu.com/other/feedback/suggestions

[David Polich]

Mike Halloran's post really summed it up.

The OP is focused on VEPro. Fine. But that is a very small part of the
software market.

Frankly I really don't see any need for MOTU to jump on the VST3 bandwagon.
It isn't worth the hassle for them right now, and as Halloran's post points
out, there is NO advantage to using VST3.

[Steve Steele]

You guys just don't get it. This is about business and opportunities for market share.

It doesn't matter if only 30% of the market supports it. What does matter is that VEPro has become a standard for many film composers. Film composing is currently one of the fastest job growth markets in the US, coming in at No. 3 in a USA Today article.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/bus ... a/2750169/

In the UK, creative industries, led by the film, TV and music industries are No 1.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-25742231


And this extends to the thousands of amateurs and hobbyist who post on YouTube, as well as the many more that don't.

- mikehalloran

Don't be condescending with me. The rest of my sentence was there for you to quote. VST3 is a very popular format with VEPro users because it allows 32 MIDI ports. I see posts almost every day or week about composers switching to Cubase and PCs for several reasons, but one that MOTU can do something about is add VST3 support. There are also reports about issues with the Event Input (more later).

And I don't care about that Cakewalk thread because it has nothing to do with this topic. This thread is about DP adopting VST3 for VEPro users, and for that reason only.

It doesn't matter if VST3 or VEPro's 32 port feature came first. It's completely irrelevant now because it exists, and it's a big enough market now that any DAW company that makes a film composer's DAW should consider it regardless of the circumstances of its existence.

"Plugin developers don't want to invest the effort because of limited demand"

We're talking one developer (VSL) who already has the plugin for sale.

"Steinberg wants to be (or already imagines itself to be) the Microsoft of audio software."

So what? Does that even matter? Is that the way MOTU should think? No. MOTU should look for advantages in this business that will increase it's market share. I'm pretty sure that adding VST3 support for VEPro users, while also having a Windows version would attract a lot of European users (who mainly buy Windows PCs), but know that DP is a star DAW in Hollywood.

Sure, this is just one industry, but it's one big industry. And it's the one DP is best known for.

- billf

I send my ideas to MOTU, but I also post them here for reasonable discussion, not sarcasm.

- David Polich

A good reply. Look at the bigger picture though. MOTU deals with small markets. They're a small company (in some respects).

Adding VST3 support might create some serious competition for Cubase in Europe, especially from new users who are interested in orchestral composing. I think there exists a bigger market there than one in the US might think.

In the US things are a bit different. With more Macs sold in the US, Logic is a popular DAW. But there could be problems for Logic in the future if Apple keep making things difficult for AU developers, decides to ignore the pro audio community at some point (which almost happened). I've heard recent stories of people leaving Logic for other DAWs for these reasons.


Again, DP with or without VST3 support is in a good position for switchers, but added VST3 support would at least give the film and orchestral composers something to think about. Quite a few of the users who switched to Logic after Apple acquired it were DP users. Many others were PC users of course.

VEPro

Somebody who some of us might be familiar with said to me regarding the VEPro Event Input, "It definitely introduces a huge number of issues, this is why I am so adamant for Cubase. If VST3 is used, 99% of all issues simply disappear.."

And this is a guy who used Logic on a MacPro and for a long time refused to switch.

He also said that with Cubase using VST3 on OSX, problems with the Event Input plugin were, "much less noticeable"

I would appreciate a little more respect when bringing up topics that could improve DP. I'm not some novice DAW user. I've been a full time musician for nearly 30 years, and have been using DP since version 1.7. I also worked at Apple in the late 90s. I have enough experience that something tells me this could be a good thing for MOTU.

I wish that the I/O between DP and VEPro was better, and I believe using VST3 would help. And again, I only want DP to adopt VST3 so they it will run better with VEPro, and because of the possible increase in sales of the Windows version of DP in Europe. Even if it's a small increase for now, it's a small increase in one of the largest job growth markets in the US and UK (probably Germany too).

It's just smart business, IMO.

[James Steele]

It doesn't matter if VST3 or VEPro's 32 port feature came first. It's completely irrelevant now because it exists, and it's a big enough market now that any DAW company that makes a film composer's DAW should consider it regardless of the circumstances of its existence.

Second to MAS's 64 port feature which preceded both of them, but VEPro doesn't support MAS so it doesn't matter. I don't own VEPro. What is the advantage? Is it more connections for a single instance of a plug?

You understand we have another topic going where someone else is also pushing for MOTU to implement something for which the benefit to them is unproven. People like to come to this board and then passionately advocate for MOTU to build in a feature, support a standard, or develop a particular product that they are certain is needed. Have at it. You might write to them directly in addition to attempting to enlist supporters here.

[James Steele]

Well, in all fairness, I've heard there are some problems with DP and VEPro. I don't use it myself, but I've heard about them and as is often the case, it's very difficult to ascertain just who needs to fix things to get it to work 100%. But seems like fixing issues with VEPro could be done with a more targeted approach specific to VEPro than by updating DP to support VST3? You'd think it would be less work for MOTU that way.

[James Steele]

I deleted the back and forth sniping. People get respect when they give it. And actually, in general, if people are going to use an internet forum they have to deal with people disagreeing with them. There's no need to whip out one's credentials. We have no shortage of accomplished people on this forum. Thanks.

[Steve Steele]

It doesn't matter if VST3 or VEPro's 32 port feature came first. It's completely irrelevant now because it exists, and it's a big enough market now that any DAW company that makes a film composer's DAW should consider it regardless of the circumstances of its existence.

Second to MAS's 64 port feature which preceded both of them, but VEPro doesn't support MAS so it doesn't matter. I don't own VEPro. What is the advantage? Is it more connections for a single instance of a plug?

You understand we have another topic going where someone else is also pushing for MOTU to implement something for which the benefit to them is unproven. People like to come to this board and then passionately advocate for MOTU to build in a feature, support a standard, or develop a particular product that they are certain is needed. Have at it. You might write to them directly in addition to attempting to enlist supporters here.

MAS would be great I agree, but as you said it didn't get support.

The advantage to using VST3 is that you get 32 MIDI ports within each instance in VEPro, which 16 MIDI channels per port. So one instance of VEPro can contain 512 MIDI channels. AU is limited to 16 ports. Poor Logic users.

This ends up making a difference (especially with Kontakt), in the number of VEPro instances required, and it reduces the number of VEPro instances, or Event Audio plug ins DP would have to deal with.

The bottom line is CPU and sample management efficiency is made much easier.

I know there are other threads about features which people want, but in this case my post was mainly to point out a fairly disturbing trend that could have a negative effect on DP (Apple uncertain commitment to the pro market and the effect it's having on AU development, and DP getting caught not supporting what the film industry is demanding). I thought that was worth bring attention too.

I think, eventually, MOTU will add VST3 support to DP in an upcoming release. But that's just my guess based on their adoption of Windows for DP and what is happening in the film industry concerning DAWs.

I'm a die hard DP and OSX user and want to see these two technologies on the cutting edge.

[Steve Steele]

I deleted the back and forth sniping. People get respect when they give it. And actually, in general, if people are going to use an internet forum they have to deal with people disagreeing with them. There's no need to whip out one's credentials. We have no shortage of accomplished people on this forum. Thanks.

I agree and thank you for deleting those posts. I only "whip out credentials" when people quickly dismiss a suggestion because it seems to them it has no merit and that I must have no credentials to make such a suggestion. People can disagree with me all they want, but I don't appreciate when a suggestion is disrespected off-hand.

I acknowledge the immense talent and accumulative knowledge of the members of MOTUNATION, of which I'm proud to be a part of. And I have no wish ever, to get into petty internet arguments which are below the standards of this board.

[mhschmieder]

I found another reason today why it would help if MOTU supported VST3 in DP9:

After many hours of frustration with Cakewalk's excellent CA-2A leveling plug-in (which works great in Studio One v3), an email exchange with customer support today confirmed that the AU version depends on some files in the VST3 version being loaded, so DP's lack of support for VST (on Macs at least) means that DP doesn't even see CA-2A (it doesn't show up in the list, even as "failed").

I have no idea how many other plug-ins -- now or in the future -- will have this limitation, but it has caused me to spend time yet again tonight reviewing other threads about VST vs. AU in order to decide whether I should make the switch to VST as my primary format (even though AU is better when it comes to portability of User Presets).

[Michael Canavan]

MAS would be great I agree, but as you said it didn't get support.

That's really pretty much VSL's bad. VSL Pro is used by a lot of DP users it's pretty nuts they don't support it considering they could offer DP users more ports than VST3. Audio Ease support MAS, it's not unprecedented.

I think, eventually, MOTU will add VST3 support to DP in an upcoming release. But that's just my guess based on their adoption of Windows for DP and what is happening in the film industry concerning DAWs.

I'm a die hard DP and OSX user and want to see these two technologies on the cutting edge.

DP will eventually get VST 3 support, there's a slow trickle of developers that are offering only AU and VST3 versions of their plug ins on OSX. I think a lot of developers on the Mac side are wondering what's going on with AU.

Be aware that DP9 at first wasn't going to have VST support in OSX, MOTU listened to us and added it. and while I don't agree 100% with the thrust of the quote Mike posted, it is true that 'host' support for VST has always been a PITA for developers, the documentation for host support has notoriously been vague, so it takes years to get right. Emagic was chosen for the Apple buyout of Logic partially based on their enthusiastic embracing of AU, and rush to abandon VST support. In Mac OS9 etc. VST support outside of Cubase often meant huge stability problems.. It's all better now, but can you name another VST3 DAW that isn't Cubase besides Studio One maybe?

With all that in mind, again I think the real let down is VSL not supporting MAS considering MIDI port wise it's still more robust than VST3..

[bayswater]

I found another reason today why it would help if MOTU supported VST3 in DP9:

After many hours of frustration with Cakewalk's excellent CA-2A leveling plug-in (which works great in Studio One v3), an email exchange with customer support today confirmed that the AU version depends on some files in the VST3 version being loaded,

While VST3 support in DP would be good, Cakewalk's implementation is the real problem.