DP 9?

[toodamnhip]

I agree. Are you listening, Motu?! We love DP, and we want to see it recapture its past glory. It's up to you.

I gotta say, that's making the assumption that it's not a worthy tool now. Nothing is perfect and ALL DAWs have their problems. Yes, I'd like to see it improve, but I can't join in the hand-wringing. It's pretty glorious for me now. Yes... it could be better, but they way you say this makes it sound like it's some sort of dog of a DAW and that they've "blown it" having LOST some past glory. Sigh...

Maybe by “Glory”, he should have said; “recapture it’s past leading edge innovation”....( or keep re-visitng it;s past leading edge developments, making them better with the new times)...
that seems a bit more germane to what I was talking about. This conversation was NEVER about DP being any sort of “dog” DAW. On the contrary, it is a wonderful tool that I have spent god knows how many yrs pounding on....It’s a part of my right hand I think...lol.

[James Steele]

Right... I know that's how you see it. There's just a tinge of doom and gloom. But then again it all depends how you wish to be hampered. You can get DAW A that has some excellent features but is lacking in one area, or DAW B that covers what DAW A is missing but lacks some of what it has. I've said many times, that until MOTU figures out how to make a DAW that is all things to all users, there will be grousing in the forums. Some have pointed out that in some cases, MOTU perhaps wisely resists incorporating EVERY feature request lest it simply get out of hand and you have a Frankenstein's monster of a DAW.

I do feel though that since this thread is not really about tips and techniques but speculation as to future features, etc. it' doesn't really belong here and should go in the MOTU Theoretical forum. And so it is thus moved.

[toodamnhip]

Right... I know that's how you see it. There's just a tinge of doom and gloom. But then again it all depends how you wish to be hampered. You can get DAW A that has some excellent features but is lacking in one area, or DAW B that covers what DAW A is missing but lacks some of what it has. I've said many times, that until MOTU figures out how to make a DAW that is all things to all users, there will be grousing in the forums. Some have pointed out that in some cases, MOTU perhaps wisely resists incorporating EVERY feature request lest it simply get out of hand and you have a Frankenstein's monster of a DAW.

I do feel though that since this thread is nto really about tips and techniques but speculation as to future features, etc. it' doesn't really belong here and should go in the MOTU Theoretical forum. And so it is thus moved.

The more tools one has, the better.
Like everything in life, the more experience with a variety of audio tools you have the better you can create.
For example, I just started using iZoptope “Pitch Editor” inside of Nectar II. AND I use DP’s pitch. I start in DP, then sweeten in iZotope , which I have discovered, has a bit of a better sweet spot than DP in the song I am on. So there is an example of multiple tools. I also use Antares and Melodyne, and every tune finds me using different combinations.

But there are other things I HATE going to other apps for. I don’t like going to Melodyne to time stretch a note. I don’t like going to Pro Tools to time stretch multiple tracks of an orchestra.

And I’d hate to have to go to another DAW for MIDI track comping or anything to do with MIDI. I haven;t yet and, to be honest, I don’t know if any other company has MIDI comping????

So some improvements requested are out of a love for DP and almost “jealousy” if another DAW does something I’d rather stay in DP for.....not just convenience. MIDI is definitely an area I expect DP to have pride in and being on the cutting edge...I expect to have to leave DP for some tasks, but never MIDI. I guess we all have our breaking point where we get bothered by any given limitation. These can be very personal to every user.
But personally, I am not expecting DP to be all things and I know you are not arguing that I am personally asking for such.
But you must admit that MIDI should be an area where DP is NEVER beaten or out done. MIDI mutes being one example, and, a more elegant way of automating CC data would be a wonderful area where MOTU could once again lead the pack.

[bayswater]

Yes, I'd like to see it improve, but I can't join in the hand-wringing. It's pretty glorious for me now.

No kidding. When were these lost glory days of DP? How did they end?

[MikeInBoston]

Perhaps using the phrase "recapture its past glory" was a bad choice of words and a little over the top on my part. I'm sorry. But in my view of things (which is an imperfect view of things just like anybody else on this forum), Motu is no longer an innovator regarding DP. It seems that they generally resist our requests for improvement, and DP is stagnating as a result. Is that doom and gloom? No. Is DP a "dog"? Absolutely not. I LOVE DP, and I've been using it almost exclusively lately. But when I look at some of the innovations and changes that are being introduced in other DAWs, I can't help but wonder if Motu has lost its vision and creativity.

Anyway, that's my imperfect perception of things. I like you guys, and I'm very grateful to James for this forum. It's a wonderful gift to the DP and Motu community on his part. Thank you, James.

Mike

[bayswater]

Motu is no longer an innovator regarding DP. It seems that they generally resist our requests for improvement, and DP is stagnating as a result.

Well, I can make sense of that statement, even though I don't really agree. What is the strong alternative to DP at this point? As James said, they all have strengths and weaknesses. Is there one of them that matches DP, and also has a few killer features DP doesn't? (BTW, that would include buying form a company that is easy to deal with and has a decent support community.) I think you'd have to buy and learn all of them to get any significant lift.

[mikehalloran]

Motu is no longer an innovator regarding DP.

Says you.
Unless you count everything else.

Many of the others are getting pretty good but, until one DAW can just read my mind and do what I want, I am happy to stick with DP as my main choice. It isn't the only one I know or own.

[MikeInBoston]

As far as DAWS go, I own Logic Pro, Cubase, Studio One, Ableton Live, Reason, and Digital Performer. All of them are the current versions. I am familiar with all of them, but the ones that I'm the most comfortable with right now are Logic, Ableton, and DP. Are there any that match DP? I can't answer that, because James is right about them all having their strengths and weaknesses. For orchestral stuff (which is what I've been doing lately), DP wins, although Cubase and Logic would be acceptable. For film music, of course, DP rules. The other two don't have streamers and such. Ableton Live is king of dance and experimental music (although some people prefer Reason, FL Studio (PC only), or others for that.) And then there's Studio One. I like it a lot. It's a good compromise of everything that's out there, and it's a decent choice if you need a general purpose DAW (it's much easier to learn than some of the others).

And let's not forget Bitwig Studio, which is being released on Wednesday, March 26th. Many in the dance community have been calling it an Ableton Live killer. Although that remains to be seen, it does have many of the features that Ableton users have been screaming for over the last few years. And it does have something that's very attractive to me, and that's being able to work on multiple tracks in the MIDI editor (as in DP) at the same time. I'll probably get it because I'm intrigued by it, and also I do write dance music sometimes.

I haven't mentioned Pro Tools because (1) I don't own it, and (2) it's reputation for MIDI has not been that great.

Killer features? Although this is solely based on my own taste and personal preference, (1) drag and drop user interface in Ableton, Studio One, and Bitwig, (2) non-linear music creation in Ableton and Bitwig, (3) very nice, useable supplied instruments and the new chord track and mixer in Cubase, and lastly (4) a beautiful user interface (it's a pleasure to look at), fantastic sound, deep MIDI with great MIDI plug-ins (although for some of us, we want it to go deeper) and wonderful film tools in Digital Performer. And there are more killer features in all the products I've mentioned, but my brain can't recall them at this time.


Again, are there any DAWs that can match DP? It all depends on the user's preferences and personality, his or her needs, and the kind of music being created.

Do I want all all those killer features that I mentioned in the other DAWs implemented in DP? No, not necessarily.

What do I want? Simply to see a little forward momentum on Motu's part by giving us at least some of the features that we've been requesting over the years.

Now I'm off to lunch.

Mike

[bayswater]

Mike, thanks for the details about these DAWs. I can appreciate the effort it takes to learn that many of them well. I've tried most if not all of them, but not landed on anything that would justify the learning curve for me. As you say, a lot depends on the music you do.

One you didn't mention that looks good in its ads is Samplitude. Don't know If it lives up to its promise.

[FMiguelez]

Do I want all all those killer features that I mentioned in the other DAWs implemented in DP? No, not necessarily.

What do I want? Simply to see a little forward momentum on Motu's part by giving us at least some of the features that we've been requesting over the years.

Forward momentum??

What would that look like, exactly?
It sounds as if MOTU hadn't implemented any DP new features in years...


That I know of, there are basically 2 features that have been consistently requested for some time by a lot of members, including myself: MIDI Mute and MIDI Regions.

Perhaps we, as users, have failed at not communicating our wishes to MOTU properly? We basically have DP-Wish-Lists all over the place, with the suggestions buried among dozens of comments. But, is that effective? Are we really hoping the MOTU engineers will browse the forum in search of those wishes? I don't think we're making it easier for them.

I suppose we could create here some kind of poll where we vote for the features we want the most, so it's easy and obvious for them to find them like this?
This could be an unofficial communication channel with MOTU. They would have no obligation to comply, but then at least we will have done our part, and we'd be sure they know our wishes.



About MIDI regions:
The main reason I want MIDI Regions is because this would force MOTU to correct the Copy-Paste-Snip problems that one sees with MIDI CCs and audio automation parameters. So far it messes up the automation by creating (or deleting) ramps in the target track that were not in the source. Same with snipping measures... It messes everything up!
These operations must be checked, corrected and rechecked every time. I'm hoping MIDI regions will be the answer to this.

[bayswater]

suppose we could create here some kind of poll where we vote for the features we want the most, so it's easy and obvious for them to find them like this?

Setting that up in a way that makes it useful in setting priorities for development is a huge job. Not likely something that anyone here would want to take on. And ... not to put too fine a point on it .... figuring out what users want is the job of the DP product manager, not us.

I find it hard to believe that requests for MIDI mute would come as a surprise to anyone at MOTU.

[FMiguelez]

suppose we could create here some kind of poll where we vote for the features we want the most, so it's easy and obvious for them to find them like this?

Setting that up in a way that makes it useful in setting priorities for development is a huge job. Not likely something that anyone here would want to take on.

I agree it would be a big job.
Thinking about it, a poll would probably not be the best approach, because it would have to be setup assuming the poll options (if we want to keep it to a reasonable 10-15 wished features), so it would be almost arbitrary which ones are included, sort of defeating the purpose.

Maybe a simple well organized thread would do if MOTU knows about it?

Perhaps we could have a double thread about our wish list:
Thread A, where we propose, critique, challenge and refine ideas (pretty much what we always do anyway), and Thread B, where the final ideas are summarized and drafted in a clear and easy-to-understand way (perhaps even with pictures). This one would be a one-post-per-suggestion, locked thread, where only one or two people would have access to keep things clear.

And ... not to put too fine a point on it .... figuring out what users want is the job of the DP product manager, not us.

I find it hard to believe that requests for MIDI mute would come as a surprise to anyone at MOTU.

I agree it's their job.
But it's in our own interest that the decision makers at MOTU know exactly what we want (and how we want it). It would be so easy for the execs or engineers to see Thread B if our suggestions are concisely written, with only refined and "approved" suggestions (that came from Thread A).

I'm sure we could collectively invent some way to create this "unofficial coms channel" with MOTU that is effective and mutually beneficial.

If you guys are serious about all this, I'd happily donate some of my time to help, as I'm sure other interested members would as well.

I just think that if we don't do try different things, we can't expect to have different results, and we will have to be content with doing what we've always done (with the same results).

[James Steele]

Like everything in life, the more experience with a variety of audio tools you have the better you can create.
For example, I just started using iZoptope “Pitch Editor” inside of Nectar II. AND I use DP’s pitch. I start in DP, then sweeten in iZotope , which I have discovered, has a bit of a better sweet spot than DP in the song I am on. So there is an example of multiple tools. I also use Antares and Melodyne, and every tune finds me using different combinations.

I hear you. I have a number of songs tracked and to be mixed in DP that I feel in hindsight really MUST get bumped up 2-3 bpm and I'm thinking that given what I've read online, the best route to go will probably be to mix it at the current tempo and then use Serrato Pitch N Time to speed the final mixes up slightly. Of course, I may use backing tracks and need individual tracks at the new tempo also, so that may complicate things. But the backing track projects can always be made after the fact and in a live setting, quality may not be as critical. Or I can maybe employ a third party tool, or MachFive IRCAM stretching, to adjust the individual tracks.

[James Steele]

And let's not forget Bitwig Studio, which is being released on Wednesday, March 26th. Many in the dance community have been calling it an Ableton Live killer.

Hehehe... you'll forgive me if I forget that. Fortunately, that's a genre where the features that community values are usually of little value to me. It seems to be a specialized subset, and I'm actually glad MOTU doesn't spend lots of time chasing that segment. In fact, I'm often amused at the criticisms Ableton users bring to this forum after trying the DP demo. If DP is a socket wrench, Live is a drill. They want the socket wrench to behave like a drill. As TDH mentioned, sometimes you need multiple tools. It's why a session guitarist probably owns a Les Paul AND a Tele. One size doesn't fit all.

[toodamnhip]

Do I want all all those killer features that I mentioned in the other DAWs implemented in DP? No, not necessarily.

What do I want? Simply to see a little forward momentum on Motu's part by giving us at least some of the features that we've been requesting over the years.

Forward momentum??

What would that look like, exactly?
It sounds as if MOTU hadn't implemented any DP new features in years...


That I know of, there are basically 2 features that have been consistently requested for some time by a lot of members, including myself: MIDI Mute and MIDI Regions.

Perhaps we, as users, have failed at not communicating our wishes to MOTU properly? We basically have DP-Wish-Lists all over the place, with the suggestions buried among dozens of comments. But, is that effective? Are we really hoping the MOTU engineers will browse the forum in search of those wishes? I don't think we're making it easier for them.

I suppose we could create here some kind of poll where we vote for the features we want the most, so it's easy and obvious for them to find them like this?
This could be an unofficial communication channel with MOTU. They would have no obligation to comply, but then at least we will have done our part, and we'd be sure they know our wishes.



About MIDI regions:
The main reason I want MIDI Regions is because this would force MOTU to correct the Copy-Paste-Snip problems that one sees with MIDI CCs and audio automation parameters. So far it messes up the automation by creating (or deleting) ramps in the target track that were not in the source. Same with snipping measures... It messes everything up!
These operations must be checked, corrected and rechecked every time. I'm hoping MIDI regions will be the answer to this.

It is a pain to paste automation, it is actually quite whacky and I personally get really pissed about this problem. Just try pasting a chorus, yikes. Not only does it take trickery, it makes one a bit neurotic because you're not sure everything is going to automate correctly so you have to listen and double check like crazy.
The secret is making little snap shot anchors in both the from location and to "to" location. On the "to" location, make a snap shot a few ticks before the point you are pasting to ensure no ramps are made. This is a truly retarded problem DP has that shows that whomever programmed DP hadn't a clue about mixing or just didn't bother. For DP defaults to making a retarded ramp from one paste point to another and if you are not careful, you'll have 99 bars of drifting automation...oh man I hate that. It catches me less and less nowadays but is still something I have to guard against..a real waste of mental energy when mixing.