No pci/thunderbolt = leaving Motu - open letter

[webweave]

I'm not in the same situation as I don't need a new computer but I'm still thinking about the future as I have a 2408mk3, 24i/o, 308, 8pre and a MidiExpressXT.

I would like to see MOTU release a new product to help us into the new Mac so called Pro. How about producing a MOTU 1 rack box like the rest of the line but this one has an AudioWire to PCIe converter PLUS all the functions of the dearly departed 308 multi-format digital audio interface?

I like my 308 but some updating would be nice to that product, I do sound for video and need to be able to transfer just about anything somebody shows up with and the 308 does the job.

[James Steele]

I don't know what MOTU plans to do. It will be interesting to see. I will probably be find for years to come with the Mac that I currently have, but it would be nice to know that my HD192 and 24I/O will be useful for years to come. It seems like rather than a rackmount unit, a Thunderbolt to Audiowire breakout box would be entirely feasible. MOTU could charge a decent price for them $299, $399, etc. and sell a good many of them.

Either that, or if they want to sell new interfaces, sort of do something similar to how you can daisy-chain a serial MTP off of a USB MTP. Make an new version of the 828X with an Audiowire connector on the back, allowing you to daisy chain the old style interfaces off of a new MOTU Thunderbolt interface. They still sell a new interface that way and old interfaces can still be used as expanders.

[HCMarkus]

If you do a search on this site alone there are numerous people with that issue on a mac pro. Here are 6 threads I found in 5 minutes which as far as I can tell went unresolved. At least a couple gave up on Motu all together because of the issue.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... pe#p346299

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=9952

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=30429

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 00&start=0

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=39840

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... s+and+pops


So, there definitely is an issue. May I ask those of you with a working mac pro setup, which generation mac pro do you have?

In 2006-2010? I don't know what your definition of "is" is.

There are always folks who have issues, but I'm sure if the problems reported in the linked threads were the rule rather than the rare exception, MOTU would not still be selling 2408 systems. MOTUNation mod James Steele has been running MOTU PCIe for years, on MP 1,1 and recently 4,1. I assure you, Charles, there any many others who have no complaints.

In fairness, I have to admit I haven't run a 2408 since my last studio burned up in 2003. That was back in the G4 days, when DP had just begun to fulfill the promise of a native DAW and VI's. Firewire interfaces have been fine for me since then. I remind folks who are looking at a new MP or Mini what Magic Dave had to say:

Our Firewire interfaces do work with the Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD464 ... r?fnode=51

$30.

[James Steele]

Well I knew people would get worked up, so I guess I asked for that. Now let's see if people are as willing to help.

I think people have been trying to help.

My main reason for not wanting to buy a used mac pro is simple. Last I checked, there was an issue with people getting pops and clicks using their pci cards with mac pros. I believe it had to do with the card not fitting properly into the mac pro's pci slots.

I saw you subsequently post links to some topics on this forum. I don't have time to review them to determine if what you say is true about cards not fitting in the slots. There have been issues sometimes with people using regular Firewire cables instead of Audiowire cables and the connector not seating fully in the card. That's remedied by shaving off some of the plastic molding with an Xacto knife, etc. But we're getting down in the weeds here.

There is an enormous user base of people using PCI-424e cards in MacPros. Sometimes the cards themselves fail causing the crackles. I've had it happen to me and was able to return the card to MOTU after diagnosing the issue over the phone with a tech. And actually that was with the PCI-X version of the card in my G5. The PCIe-424 I have now worked flawlessly in a MacPro 1,1 and my current USED MacPro 4,1.

What hardware are you currently running? You seem to have avoided answering that question. If you are using a G5 or earlier, you'll find that the increase in performance moving to an Intel MacPro is staggering. I used to run DP on my dual 2.5 G5 Mac. Some years back I paid $1,000 for a MacPro 1,1. The gain was HUGE. The 4,1 is much better than that.

I assure you, I AM trying to help here. If you are using a G5 or earlier, and don't want to give up your PCI-424 based hardware, you'd probably be well-served to get the newer PCIe-424 card and a used or refurbed MacPro. These machines are plenty powerful. That will extend the usefulness of your interfaces for years to come and minimal expense.

I think your fears about having the crackling problem are unfounded. There are huge numbers of people using MacPros with PCIe-424 systems NOT having problems at all! They just don't come to this board and post "I have a MacPro and PCIe-424 and it's not crackling!"

If this issue was resolved, please post the answer with the same vigor that you had disagreeing with my post.

The issue was never an issue... not to the the extent you're making it out to be. Also, I know you're new here, and as much as I can admire the cleverness of your prose, there's no need to be snide. Thanks.

[charlesaustin]

Ok couple things.

It only took me 5 minutes to find 6 threads on this forum alone with the same issue. This is not a coincidence. It is not a faulty card. If you read thought the links posted there is a guy who was on his third replacement card from motu. Units work fine in a G5, they pop and click in a mac pro. If you would like I would be happy to post 20 more links from all over the net of people with the same problem. That is not the point of this thread.

To be more clear, the cards "appear" to fit. However, the contact is not perfect which apparently causes the issues mentioned.

Performance has nothing to do with it. I am perfectly happy with a g5 (I am old school where I actually play the instruments and am not afraid to freeze a track). I would buy 5 used ones, unfortunately no one is supporting ppc macs anymore. (Maybe this will get me back in your guys good graces) Most of the reason is I would want to upgrade is to use the latest DP, the included plugs are awesome, I have them on my laptop.

I would be more than happy with a new mac mini.

What I really need is 24 adat i/o so I can use my RADAR converters. I am not going to spend nearly 2k for a bunch of features I don't need.

Again, not trying to bash motu. I realize a lot of you guys respond passionately on this forum. It is like somebody picked on your little brother and your coming to his defense. I simply put that if they do not put out a solution with the features I need, I will have to move on.

The problem is, say I purchase a used mac pro. How do I explain that I want to return the computer which works fine because something is wrong with MY hardware? I know I would not accept the return, would you?

So, instead of questioning my motives, here are two productive answers that would actually help.

1) what generation mac pro are you using with no issues (thanks to those who posted that in their reply btw)

2) a reputable used mac seller who will accept returns no questions asked.

Thanks again, especially to the moderators and hosts of this forum who provide a place for us to troubleshoot and discuss these products.

[Shooshie]

While I want to remain hopeful that the MOTU engineers find a way to keep the PCI 424 interfaces current, I'm reading Magic Dave's post and coming away with the impression that it's just not going to happen. He says their engineers say there's nothing they can do about it. Well, here are his exact words:

I've stated in other threads and I'll repeat here. The PCI 424 card doesn't work in any Thunderbolt expansion chassis and our engineers inform me that this is not something we can fix. Our Firewire interfaces do work with the Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter, and we didn't have to do anything special to make that happen.

Nevertheless, it's just electronics and computers, and it seems to me that where there is a will, there's a way. But Dave's been pretty straightforward about it. Whether the problem is technical, practical, or cost, MOTU's engineers believe a solution isn't feasible, so they aren't looking at Thunderbolt to PCI solutions. We're going to need either Firewire or Thunderbolt interfaces when we buy the new Mac Pro "can" shaped computer unless a 3rd party comes up with a solution in the form of a Thunderbolt breakout box for PCIe cards that can use current PCIe drivers and stay up to date with each OS X release.

One can hope! Either way, I'll stay with MOTU. My PCI boxes and my Firewire boxes have been hard-working and great sounding for over 15 years now.

Shooshie

[HCMarkus]

http://www.macofalltrades.com/Returns.asp

Recommended is the 4,1 2.66 2009. You will be blown away by the performance relative to the G5. And it is upgradeable to 5,1 very easily if ever needed. My current MP started life as a 2.66 4,1.

Price is currently $899 at MAcOfAllTrades. Has been as low as $699, but it seems the upgradeability has increased demand and pushed the price up.

Charles, one point about positive vs negative remarks on websites... people usually come here when they are having trouble. We don't see very many posts titled "My system works perfectly and I just needed to tell someone."

[James Steele]

Ok couple things.

It only took me 5 minutes to find 6 threads on this forum alone with the same issue. This is not a coincidence. It is not a faulty card. If you read thought the links posted there is a guy who was on his third replacement card from motu. Units work fine in a G5, they pop and click in a mac pro. If you would like I would be happy to post 20 more links from all over the net of people with the same problem. That is not the point of this thread.

My point that I made is that people do NOT post to forums when things are going well. Congratulations... you found 20 people having problems out of how many?

The problem is, say I purchase a used mac pro. How do I explain that I want to return the computer which works fine because something is wrong with MY hardware?

I don't know what to tell you other than the problem is NOT as widespread as you make it out to be. The vast majority of users are using the PCIe-424 cards in their MacPros. I am one of them as I mentioned to you.
So... to answer your specific question:

1) what generation mac pro are you using with no issues (thanks to those who posted that in their reply btw)

I have used my PCI hardware and PCIe-424 card successfully with no issues in both a 2006 MacPro 1,1 and a 2009 MacPro 4,1. I transferred the card out of the 1,1 and it worked perfectly fine in the 4,1.

The only time I ever had trouble with a PCI-424 was in a G5. But then again, the card actually had issues which was what was causing the pops and clicks and a replacement card fixed it.

Thanks again, especially to the moderators and hosts of this forum who provide a place for us to troubleshoot and discuss these products.

You're welcome. I'm the owner of this forum. I do hope that maybe you'll objectively listen to the suggestions here. I think you're giving too much weight to the posts you've found about the MacPros. People who aren't having problems don't post to boards like this. That's why searching boards for issues will give you a skewed perspective sometimes.

I also have a hard time reconciling these two positions:

If there is no pci - thunderbolt solution I will be forced to move on to a different companies products.

Performance has nothing to do with it. I am perfectly happy with a g5...

So on the one hand, you're going to ditch MOTU products unless they have a way to support your older interfaces via Thunderbolt which is only available on the most powerful modern Macs... yet at the same time, you have no real NEED for the most powerful modern Macs?

I understand that your position seems to be that the MacPros from 1,1 to the models just before the "trashcan" MacPro are unusable with PCI MOTU hardware? Obviously, you understand that if that were really the case, this board would be DELUGED with complaints... not just however many you found.

BTW, many people here play instruments, but having a more powerful Mac will translate into improvements in efficiency. You may not mind freezing tracks, but at the same time, not having to do so will free up some time. DP becomes more responsive, etc.

But seriously, if you'd otherwise be happy with G5, than get yourself a MacPro 1,1 just to get your feet wet. When I did it, a MacPro 1,1 was $1000. You can probably find one on craigslist for $150 or so. Projects that were PEGGING DP's Performance meter went to about HALF after going to the MacPro 1,1. So you can get one really cheap, and see that if it works at little risk. If you're using a G5 now, unless it was the very LAST iteration of the G5 from 2005 (which had PCIe slots), you'll still have to get another PCIe-424 card from MOTU or maybe eBay. Again, you can find out if you'll be good for not that much money. This is because, again, if you're happy with your G5, then your expectations will be easy to meet (and actually exceed) for cheap with a MacPro 1,1.

Once you have a working MacPro 1,1... you can then try to make the leap to a 4,1 which as HC Markus has mentioned is a GREAT machine for the money. A post of his convinced me to make the leap and it was a great decision. You can also upgrade the processor in it down the road, too. Only thing about the MacPro 1,1 to keep in mind is Snow Leopard (10.6.8) is the end of the road OS-wise for that machine. However, you can STILL run DP in 64-bit mode and have DP access more than 4GB of RAM. That said, given that the RAM modules in those machines are sort of odd ducks with heat sinks and not used in later MacPros... try to find RAM as cheaply as possible if you want to get more, because you won't be able to use it in newer MacPros.

I really think you'll be okay here. You're actually very fortunate that your needs are modest in terms of computing power. That is what is going to enable you to use your perfectly good MOTU PCI-based audio interfaces for years to come. I'm in a similar situation. I have a 24 I/O and an HD192. The HD192 in particular is a great interface. Because I primarily record instruments and do rock/metal songs, I don't need the massive power of the newest MacPro. I may LUST after the new machine, but I don't NEED it. Like I mentioned before, I've been using my PCI MOTU hardware in both my MacPro 1,1 and now my MacPro 4,1... both that I bought used with no problems. Also for perspective... I paid $1,000 for my MacPro 1,1 when I got it some years ago and only $700 for my MacPro 4,1. Even with the *high* price of the 1,1 back then, that's ONLY $1700 I've put out for computers in the LAST FIVE YEARS. And I expect I'll be using this MacPro 4,1 for another two years easy. $1700 divided by 7 = 250 per year! Not bad really. If you get yourself a MacPro 1,1 (again, because you're used to a G5 you'll still be quite happy with the performance GAIN) for about $150, you'll be able to use your existing hardware for a song. Yes, you might have to get a new PCI-424e card which will cost more than the MacPro 1,1, but I'm telling you that the actual odds of you having an issue with this setup are not ANYWHERE NEAR what you perceive them to be.

I have my old MacPro 1,1 sitting in the corner after I retired it and I know it works with the PCI-424. I'm tempted to sell you mine cheap (and I'll take it back), but because it can also boot Windows, I'm considering retiring my G5 (that once was my main DAW Mac also) from office duty and using the MacPro 1,1 instead. Currently I have a G5 and a Windows tower that share a monitor and keyboard via a switcher. The MacPro 1,1 would let me have both a Windows machine AND the Mac in one unit.

Bottom line here Charles... nobody here is trying to pick on you. We ARE trying to help. Please understand, I've run this forum for a decade or more and we get our share of people making dramatic posts announcing to the world that MOTU better do _____ or they're leaving, and many times the issue is quite solvable. Again... I know I'm beating this to death, but snap up a MacPro 1,1 for $150 on Craigslist and I'll bet you'll be happy. If not, you can always flip it for what you paid for it. Those machines are so cheap right now, they won't go much lower because they've very capable internet and office machines.

[charlesaustin]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

You may have missed in my post, I would prefer a new mac mini over the trash can (unless it was free)....

If you check my other posts here and elsewhere I am very positive about motu and dp. It was only this specific issue that held me back from buying the mac pro.

I would stick with my g5 too be honest, except I think the video card was giving me trouble when starting up (sometimes the screen would be black. The funny part is, now it just stays on 24/7...... and works perfect....

[James Steele]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

You may have missed in my post, I would prefer a new mac mini over the trash can (unless it was free)....

If you check my other posts here and elsewhere I am very positive about motu and dp. It was only this specific issue that held me back from buying the mac pro.

I would stick with my g5 too be honest, except I think the video card was giving me trouble when starting up (sometimes the screen would be black. The funny part is, now it just stays on 24/7...... and works perfect....

No worries. As i said, I wish I could just send you my old MacPro 1,1 because it worked fine with the PCI hardware. I really think you'll be okay if you take the plunge. You really can get the 1,1 dirt cheap these days and it will run your projects MUCH faster than the G5. When you first run an Intel Mac (I remember that moment) you totally understand why Steve Jobs had to bail on the PowerPC chips. It was a quantum leap forward from the best G5 machines.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

1,1? Why not go for at least a 3,1 so if you do get a PCI solution, you can move to Mvks and beyond in the future. Not really needing PCI as a mission critical, I do lust after the Darth Vader Hat machine.

[James Steele]

1,1? Why not go for at least a 3,1 so if you do get a PCI solution, you can move to Mvks and beyond in the future. Not really needing PCI as a mission critical, I do lust after the Darth Vader Hat machine.
]

Just suggesting the CHEAPEST option.

[mikehalloran]

Unless you have one of the few G5s with PCIe slots, you will need a new 424 card for using your old system in a Mac Pro.

As I pointed out earlier, Apple will be supporting the 5.1 for at least 3 more years due to all of the ones that they sold through February with AppleCare. Even if/when Apple stops releasing new versions of the OS that will run on these as they have the PPC, it doesn't mean the old ones will magically stop working.

I take care of a lot of old Macs and also own a few. My 2408 still works in my G4s with its 324 card. I never bought a PCIx card for my still working G5. I've given away the last of my G3s but I get to visit them in the school labs that I maintain - all still work.

Once again, how many PCI audio card manufacturers are shipping a unit that works in a TB expansion chassis? None. Only one maker has announced that one of their cards might work if they can update the firmware to be compatible - hasn't happened yet.

[mikehalloran]

I just realized the irony of a G5 owner complaining that MOTU isn't keeping up. The G5 was discontinued nearly 9 years ago and no longer supported by Apple when OS 10.6 was released on June 6, 2009 (Let's do the math: that's seven years after the G5 was introduced and four years after it was discontinued).



Seriously, a Mac Pro 5.1 gets you to 1 month ago. You will not believe the improvement in everything once you upgrade. I was blown away in 2010 when I retired mine in favor of an iMac.

The only downside is that you will need a new space heater as the intel Macs run so much cooler. I joked that the reduction I'm my air conditioning alone paid for it and I was only partially kidding. Oh yea, you'll probably have to get a new 424 card - this eliminates any chance of the popping that so concerns you.

Some things won't work and it's a good idea to keep the old Mac around and networked till you figure out what. My wife did a lot of things in AppleWorks and that's one of the reasons I still keep a G4 networked to mine. I chose a G4 over a G5 so that I could boot into OS 9 when I need to.

[charlesaustin]

It seems like the smartest thing to do is go with the model capable of running Maverick, this is 4.1 and up correct?