No pci/thunderbolt = leaving Motu - open letter

[charlesaustin]

Hi, I don't know of a better place to post this so here it goes.

Been a long time user, heavily invested in a pci setup. Unfortunately, it seems many of us are in the same position. I am writing this in hopes that other join and motu listens.

If there is no pci - thunderbolt solution I will be forced to move on to a different companies products. The new interface simply does not accomplish what I need. That is all, I am sure I am not alone. Hopefully Motu listens.

If your in the same situation, please join the thread. No need for people who disagree to get upset or even reply to the tread. Motu makes great products, just not the ones we need.

[Shooshie]

I've been a little concerned about that, too, Charles, but I don't think I'll have to leave MOTU. Things are still pretty new. Look around and see how many people are buying the new Mac Pro. It's a tiny handful so far. There is no incentive for MOTU or anyone else to come out with a full line of audio and MIDI interfaces for a device that statistically represents 0% of their user base. Give it time.

Apple isn't done "innovating" the new Mac Pro, either. I'm sure they'll get a lot of feedback. They may even decide that this was a pretty machine, but not the workhorse that creatives need, kind of like the Mac "Cube" that was Steve Jobs' pet project about 12 years ago. I want to get a new Mac Pro, but I just can't justify it yet, and I'm pretty sure that by the time I do, MOTU will have a number of choices for us.

Will any of those choices include making their legacy PCI devices compatible with Thunderbolt? I don't know, but considering that if they don't, tens of thousands of their perfectly working PCI boxes will suddenly become obsolete, flooding the eBay market so that they won't sell many new ones, it's possible they'll see the light.

Give it some time. While waiting, get a 2012 12-core Mac Pro (cheap) and enjoy the old models for a few more years.

Shooshie

[James Steele]

This is about MOTU's company policy not troubleshooting. Moved.

[mikehalloran]

Let's take a survey. How many PCIe audio cards can be used in a TB chassis? Let's not see all the same hands... Ok... Is it still none? Yep. Ok, one has announced possible compatibility if they make a firmware upgrade and it works but that hasn't been announced. In fact, it's not been announced they will, only that it might be possible.

I was not happy when MacInTax stopped working on my Mac+. Seriously. It was the first time I needed to upgrade from a perfectly working piece of hardware to get my work done. Kiplinger's didn't work on it either.

I got over it. Just like I did the other times I had to upgrade for one reason or the other. And I still buy TurboTax even though they don't support my old Macs. What, do my taxes on paper or Windows? Yea, right...

Btw, if you have a PPC and run your business on QuickBooks, you need to upgrade your hardware. The 2014 edition will not run on a PPC. It's why I'm getting my old G5!back. Unlike the OP, the business owner needs to keep current. Should he close his business because the G5 won't run QB anymore? Of course not.

Unlike running a business and keeping up with taxes and regulations, you can still make music on old hardware. There is no compelling need to upgrade if everything is working fine. I could load my 2408 into my G4 or buy a PCIx card for it on eBay so I could run it in my G5 but I bought an 828mkII rather than the 424 card.

The new MacPro is not aimed at us; it's designed for video producers. Flextronics announced plans to hire 1,700 workers in Texas this year just to build them due to the demand. We'll see how well that works out.

Is there functionality in the nMP that you need that can't be done with the 4.1 or 5.1? Apple will be supporting the 5.1 for another three years, guaranteed. Yes, AppleCare is a guaranty that the OS and Apple apps will work on it for another three years. Since there's little difference between it and the 4.1, it's a pretty safe bet, too.

Speaking of video, it was years after the Mac came out before editors stopped looking for the discontinued Amiga because of its superiority for that task.

[mikehalloran]

Hi, I don't know of a better place to post this so here it goes.

Been a long time user, heavily invested in a pci setup. Unfortunately, it seems many of us are in the same position. I am writing this in hopes that other join and motu listens.

If there is no pci - thunderbolt solution I will be forced to move on to a different companies products. The new interface simply does not accomplish what I need. That is all, I am sure I am not alone. Hopefully Motu listens.

If your in the same situation, please join the thread. No need for people who disagree to get upset or even reply to the tread. Motu makes great products, just not the ones we need.

Oh yes, there's certainly a need for people who think that your post is silly to say so.

Posts that complain about technology moving on are ok. Declaring that you wont use a product anymore because of something that hasn't been made by anyone is silly and stupid.

If keeping your PCIe cards current is that important, buy a Windows computer. Hmmm.... Dell has come out with TB. Is this a trend?

[charlesaustin]

Well I knew people would get worked up, so I guess I asked for that. Now let's see if people are as willing to help.



My main reason for not wanting to buy a used mac pro is simple. Last I checked, there was an issue with people getting pops and clicks using their pci cards with mac pros. I believe it had to do with the card not fitting properly into the mac pro's pci slots.

I could be wrong (and hope I am) but this issue was never resolved, and there was no way of telling which mac's would be affected.

If this issue was resolved, please post the answer with the same vigor that you had disagreeing with my post.

p.s. I would never, ever, ever buy a computer running windows os. Every audio professional, and facility I have ever come across used Apple for good reason.... it works.

[magicd]

My main reason for not wanting to buy a used mac pro is simple. Last I checked, there was an issue with people getting pops and clicks using their pci cards with mac pros. I believe it had to do with the card not fitting properly into the mac pro's pci slots.

I don't know of any Mac Pro model that has problems with the PCIe 424 card. I've never heard of a problem with the cards not fitting correctly. When the first generation Intel Mac Pros came out, there was a noise problem with specific models and the PCI 424 card. That got fixed a long time ago with a driver update.


I'm currently bench testing the new "trash can" Mac Pro. The track and effects numbers are staggering. Having said that, my own personal machine is a 3 year old MacBook. My MacBook gives me all the performance I need for what I do. I'm still running OS 10.6.8 on this machine because that also works fine for me and I hate to change OS versions.

The question of upgrading computers has always been the same. How much money are you willing to spend and what do you actually need for horsepower?

As far as incompatibility of technology goes, I feel your pain. Let me tell you about my Quadra 950 and Digidesign NuBus expansion chassis. I recall that I had two I/O cards and I think five DSP cards. That was a retail value of what, maybe $25,000 or more? When PCI came in, NuBus was instantly obsolete. The good news for me was that I found somebody to buy my NuBus system. I didn't get retail value but I got enough to buy a new 8100 PCI Mac.

MOTU put the first 2408 out in 1996. There have been at least three major revisions to the PCI standard since then. We updated the PCI cards as the standards changed, and a new card is $295.00. There are still original 2408 interfaces in use in current generation Mac (well, one generation back anyway) and Windows computers. Pardon my bias, but I think that's a pretty good track record for a computer peripheral.

I've stated in other threads and I'll repeat here. The PCI 424 card doesn't work in any Thunderbolt expansion chassis and our engineers inform me that this is not something we can fix. Our Firewire interfaces do work with the Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter, and we didn't have to do anything special to make that happen.

Sometime in the next few weeks we'll be publishing some bench tests with the new Mac Pro. Hopefully that will help people decide if they need this kick butt new machine. I can give you one number right now. We connected six 828Xs to a single Mac Pro and got 156 channels of output on playback. The maximum number of outputs for a PCI system is 96 channels. So if you need 156 channels of output, there is now a solution!

Best,
Dave

[wylie1]

The good news for me was that I found somebody to buy my NuBus system.

Lucky you I held on to mine for to long couldn't give it away in the end.

[BKK-OZ]

Sometime in the next few weeks we'll be publishing some bench tests with the new Mac Pro. Hopefully that will help people decide if they need this kick butt new machine. I can give you one number right now. We connected six 828Xs to a single Mac Pro and got 156 channels of output on playback. The maximum number of outputs for a PCI system is 96 channels. So if you need 156 channels of output, there is now a solution!

Best,
Dave

I have been running up a coupla projects on my new MP (3.5GHz, with 16Gb RAM) and it works a treat.

How powerful is it I hear you ask?
It is so powerful it intimidates Chuck Norris.

How fast?
So fast I had to reduce all my tempos by half.

[HCMarkus]

My main reason for not wanting to buy a used mac pro is simple. Last I checked, there was an issue with people getting pops and clicks using their pci cards with mac pros. I believe it had to do with the card not fitting properly into the mac pro's pci slots.

Thanks Magic Dave for responding on this point... Charles, I don't think you'll get a more direct or reliable answer that that!

Your question makes me wonder what system you are using to run your MOTU PCI gear... a G5? If so, I assure you, the performance of a 2009-2012 Mac Pro suitably configured will simply blow your mind. As Magic Dave noted, a fairly current Mac laptop is plenty of computer for many DP users. Only those who are using tons of VI's really need to look beyond the oMP (Old Mac Pro = 2012 or earlier). And, as Mike noted in his posts, the 5,1 and by extension, 4,1 (which can be upgraded to fully 5,1 status by a simple EFI update) is guaranteed Apple support for at least 3 years.

I would encourage you to consider a used 4,1 or 5,1 MP and not worry. By the time you need a nMP (New Mac Pro late 2013), your concerns will be far in the past.

The above said, I would love to see MOTU support PCI via Thunderbolt.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I only need 57 channels. Still playing ketchup.

[Kubi]

Thanks Magic Dave for the post! Ah Nubus, I do not miss you one bit. Actually, SCSI is what I really miss the least...

Charles, my PCIe 424 (connected to a 2408mk3) in a 3,1 MacPro is solid as a rock. Until you're ready to go Thunderbolt, a used MacPro from a reputable seller (so you don't end up with a bum unit) is a great way to extend your PCIe lifespan. Any MacPro 3,1 and above will run all current software and OS.

To make the older MacPro more zippy, I highly recommend upgrading the OS drive to SSD, and get plenty of RAM.

You'll be fine for a few more years until speed envy will push you over the edge - it's bound to happen to me sometime soon...

[charlesaustin]

If you do a search on this site alone there are numerous people with that issue on a mac pro. Here are 6 threads I found in 5 minutes which as far as I can tell went unresolved. At least a couple gave up on Motu all together because of the issue.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... pe#p346299

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=9952

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=30429

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 00&start=0

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=39840

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... s+and+pops


So, there definitely is an issue. May I ask those of you with a working mac pro setup, which generation mac pro do you have?

[Shooshie]

Maybe this isn't the thread for it, but since we're going to have to replace our PCI audio interfaces, what Firewire interfaces have the same (or better) A/D— D/A chips, clocks, and so forth?

Maybe it's my imagination, and I'm ok with that if that's what it is, but I've always thought my 1296 is a very good box, better than my 2408, for instance. I also have an 896, and I've used it for years for location recording, so I'm used to it, but I just don't know if the new MOTU interfaces are of the same quality. The 896 seems on par with the 1296, though it has fewer tracks and different kinds of XLR/TRS sockets.

Does anyone really know the nitty-gritty facts about the quality of the innards of all the MOTU boxes? I can't believe how many PCI interfaces this is going to render obsolete. I'd love to invest in a new Mac, but I'm not doing film work, and my recording projects rarely use more than 12 microphones. I may just stay with what I have for a while, but there's one thing I really hate, and that's to sit on obsolete equipment because I don't want to change out half my studio. I've been in that situation several times, and I don't want to do it again. So... I guess my next mac will cost me another few thousand dollars for a couple more interfaces.

Sheesh... why do I do this?

Well, the parting question is: which MOTU interfaces are the highest quality ones, and how do they compare with the old 1296 or the 192HD?

shoosh

[charlesaustin]

Honestly if there was a thunderbolt solution I would just buy a mac mini server instead of the mac pro.