Weighted Keyboard Controllers

[Prime Mover]

It's getting to be that time... time to retire my old QS8 keyboard and find a new controller. For the past 4 years I've used my laptop as the sound source, 100% of the time, so I want my next board to be completely stupid. I'm having a little trouble finding a weighted controller that fits my needs, though. Here's what I would like to see:

- 88 key weighted controller with as realistic action as possible, though I'm okay with it being slightly on the lighter side, as I do end up playing a lot of keyboard, organ, and synth patches... though the bulk of my time is still on piano.

- Mono channel pressure. Poly AT would be cool if I happen to get it, but I don't really care about it that much, Mono is a requirement though. I like assigning CP to synth lead vibrato on many patches, and I'm much more facile with this method than mod wheel.

- 3 pedal ports (one sustain). My setup requires a minimum of 3 pedals. Maybe there are other methods for connecting many pedals to a computer via USB, and I'd love to hear those options as well.

- Various controller options would be nice, though I find myself not using sliders and assignable controllers as much as I would expect. I'm usually playing with both hands (hence the foot pedal needs), so I very rarely use sliders or knobs these days. I've always dreamed of having a keyboard with a big...long...ribbon controller, but I don't see very much of those these days

- Not a tank. I take my keyboard EVERYWHERE. My current one is 50lbs, and I'd rather not have something that much heavier. I'm hoping that by getting rid of any sound generators or workstation features, it could shave off some weight... but I won't get my hopes up.

Any suggestions?

PS: The Fatar boards I've played I haven't been too happy with. We had a high end Fatar board at our studio in college, and it hurt my hands it was so heavy, and I've played hundreds of grands, none of which have felt that heavy. The Kurzweil boards I've played felt similarly unfriendly (since they're fatar beds). So I'm kind of skeptical about Doepfer or Studiologic boards.

And... crap. the Roland-88 isn't an option because it doesn't have dedicated patch select buttons I need to change patches on the fly, not step through up/down keys. Other than that it would probably be perfect!

Oh, and you guys know I'm in Alaska, right? No trying out boards for me.

[HCMarkus]

I know it's more than a "stupid" keyboard, but the Yamaha S90ES has been super for me. Has the pedal inputs you need, plus a BC input (sadly missing from newer iterations) that allows expression I find amazingly powerful in a live context. Hammer action with CP, and some very cool sounds built-in to boot. About 50 lbs.

I should mention the Yamaha expression pedals are really excellent, too. Heavy, nice throw and durable. And they don't slip away when placed on carpet.

[Prime Mover]

Interesting thought. I'm curious, does Yamaha's lower-level synth, S08, use the same key bed? I believe it does. It's out of production, but about a third of the cost if I can find it used.

Oh, the only last thing, and I think I outlined this with why the A88 doesn't work for me, is that my setup requires instant patch changes. Now, I do this via a custom Max/MSP app, so I can repurpose any onboard buttons that send MIDI messages to do this, however, a lot of "smart" keyboards don't have instant patch change buttons, but you have to, say, enter 3 numbers and press "enter" before it sends the actual patch change message, and I can't have that.

BTW: I'm starting to realize that what I need, though seems like a no-brainer to me, doesn't really exist, or is extremely expensive. I'm thinking I should look on the used market. If I can get past the spongy action, an old Kurzweil K2600X would be perfect... and I'm sure I'll find that it's worlds better than my QS8. Since Alesis is known for it's glorious piano action

[Phil O]

I'm no expert on this, but isn't the weighted keys what makes the good keyboards "tanks." I've been told that attempts to skimp on the weight just ain't the same. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. I'm just going by what a keyboard player I know has said. He's in the process of shopping for an 88 key weighted board as well. He's got an old Roland that's slowly giving up the ghost. I know, PM, I'm babbling now. I'll shut up.

Phil

[Prime Mover]

Yeah, that's right. I know I'm not going to get much lighter than my QS8 (48lbs). However, some of the full on "workstations" add so many consoles and the like, and are a lot deeper, I can't help thinking that all that metal adds weight too. That's all I'm saying. But it's not a big deal.

Thankfully I'm finding that 88 key weighted boards tend to all be about the same weight, 45-50lbs. So it's not a huge concern.

[mhschmieder]

The one to get the raves lately is Kawai's VPC1 (I think that's its name), which is essentially a stripped-down MP-series digital piano with no sounds. But I can't remember if it has aftertouch (this is hard to accomplish in conjunction with hammer action).

I am months overdue for walking down the street from work to a local dealer I never knew about (a hidden piano store in the ghetto; just like my own company has discrete signs so people walking by have no hint of what is inside), that carries the Kawai series. I didn't like the previous gen but heard they stepped up their game quite a bit with the latest updates.

It's often just as cheap, or cheaper, to buy a good digital piano, but usually those have fewer MIDI features than a dedicated weighted controller.

[Prime Mover]

Yeah, a former piano mentor (never actually gave me lessons, but mentored me in production and composition, and was an incredible jazz pianist himself) was a HUGE Kawai fan. When he started selling pianos, later, the only electric pianos he would sell were kawais. They are nice, but they are TOTALLY geared away from synth or non-piano usage. I don't think any have aftertouch, no controllers at all, and I don't think their electric pianos send patch changes when changing sounds (I don't think many do). Kawai prides itself on being a piano company, and for that, they are incredible, but they are completely unusable for my needs. But I have nothing but respect for them.

If I was a two board player, it would be perfect, but I refuse to go the multi-board route. I already take so long to setup, and constantly am getting crap from bandmates about complex setups. If I got a second board, I would never have time to actually PLAY. I read an early interview with Jordan Rudess, just as he was joining Dream Theater, and he said he'd always been a single-board, 88 key man, and it really resonated with me. Never was a big Rudess fan, but his minimalistic setup always impressed me. I'm an oaf on unweighted keys, never liked them, never was comfortable with them. If I got a second, unweighted board, I'm sure I would relegate it to bastard step child and try to play it as little as possible. I'm very comfortable playing mono synths on a weighted board. But that said, the decision to play on a HEAVY weighted board (like most Fatars), I think seems kinda strange.

[frankf]

I've had a Casio PX-5s controller/synth in the studio for a few weeks and am quite impressed by the "weighted" action. I'm a piano player, btw. This board is 25 pounds. I have no idea how they did what they did to make this happen. It has 6 programmable (Korg nano style) short throw sliders and 4 programmable knobs. Plus deep programmability of the internal sounds if you're into that. (You should be, IMO, because there's a lot of sound in the synth, unlike the Kurzweil and Kawai I own). The PX-5s falls short of OP's "must have" list on 2 fronts: no aftertouch and no programmable foot controller pedal input. There's a sustain pedal input and second pedal input, but the second one is not programmable for some reason. I'm currently using the PX-5 for live VI control in the studio to film cue mock ups. But at 24 pounds, I would not hesitate to take this to a gig. The PX-5s has no speakers as do the 2 I mention below. All 3 have headphone preamps. Not a digital piano.

For reference, I'm using the PX-5s as a replacement for my Kurzweil PC-88mx. I also have a Kawai MX5 in my studio in Brazil. I like the MX5 action a lot and agree with what's been already said about Kawai actions. Both of these have sliders which can be programmed to transmit MIDI CC information. But there' something about the PX-5s action that works for me.

Piano and Keyboard actions are, by nature, subtle and personal. No keyboard I've ever played has come close to the Yamaha or Steinway pianos I play for the most part. For me, a keyboard has to feel great, not play exactly like a piano. If you can get your hands on the PX-5s and the Kawai , try them out.
Frank


Frank Ferrucci

[Prime Mover]

Funny, Yamaha and Steinway grands couldn't be more different for me, and I might get crucified for saying this, but I like Yamaha's a lot better... far more even. Also, I could take the action of a Yamaha studio grand for playing synth patches, no problem... in fact, I've actually done that a few times with a disclavier.

Channel Pressure is a big one for me. In fact, it's the number one reason I need to retire my QS8, the CP on it is starting to fail in regions. I might be able to get a few more years out of it by opening it up and checking the connections (it's intermittent in the white keys). I've been able to fix this a few times before, but everything is just starting to get a little loose and prone to failure from almost 15 years of heavy use.

Programmability is of absolutely no interest to me. I have no intention of ever using the internal sound system. Not because I don't believe it will be any good, but because I plan on doing everything through one place, and that's my laptop. Coordinating internal synth and laptop patches together would be far more trouble than it's worth.

[frankf]

Funny, Yamaha and Steinway grands couldn't be more different for me, and I might get crucified for saying this, but I like Yamaha's a lot better... far more even.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that the two were the same, just that those are the two I've played most often, of various lengths and models.



Frank Ferrucci

[Shooshie]

Yamaha and Steinway grands are likewise my two favorite keyboards, and I'd have trouble choosing between them. They are both fantastic grand pianos.

IMO, it really comes down to how well-regulated they are, but if you have a 1st class piano technician, they can make either of those keyboards sound smoother than any sample set ever commercially released, and of course, the feel is absolutely perfectly identical on every key. I'd been through a lot of keyboard technicians who I thought were good before I met the one who could make all of our keyboards play exactly the same. Exactly the same! And he could do it surprisingly quickly, though for 5 pianos it took him the better part of a workday.

I've never felt a MIDI keyboard that could get within an order of magnitude of the smoothness of a genuine grand piano keyboard that's been perfected by a real top-notch technician, unless you count the 6 or 7 Yamaha Disklaviers that I used for over 15 years. I currently use the Fatar-based Kurzweil 2600 (88 keys). It has its pros and cons, but I can make it do 99.99% of what I could do on the Yamaha Disklavier grand, with all its perfection of the keybed by our great technician. The Fatar feels sluggish, but it actually is responding pretty evenly, and I can get very rapid trills and repeated notes out of it. Still, it feels like I'm working when I do.

I don't know the answer. It's been over 12 years since I last went on a MIDI keyboard search, so it would be silly to believe that my choices 12 years ago would still be the most valid choices out there, but I'm not inclined to do that research again until I need it. On that dark day, I'll want the most up-to-date research, and I'll want to play on every one of them.

Shooshie

[davedempsey]

Apparently these master keyboards are pretty good:

http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm

[Prime Mover]

Yeah, they're pretty popular. Unfortunately, they're a bit steeper than I was hoping to spend (maybe I can find one used). They're also the same Fatar beds found on Kurzweil and StudioLogic boards, so I'm not sure. The LMK4+ would be the only one that would work for me, seeing as the LMK2+ doesn't have any buttons. The case design looks really amazing for on the road though. Funny that they're most popular among Hollywood composers.