MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

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toodamnhip
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MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by toodamnhip »

On another thread, the name of which escapes me, I pondered the question of the future of motu and expressed hope that MOTU would soon take advantage of thunderbolt’s technology and blazing speed.

Here’s my answer..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4gLmVSf ... ademail-ot

Nice!!!

If I may dream some more, a thunderbolt, flying fader, fully automated control surface, dedicated to DP,that can also real time edit all AU effects... would be really nice Santa!!!
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nk_e
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by nk_e »

Nice! I wonder why USB 2 rather than USB 3?

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MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Backward compatibility?
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by mikehalloran »

Nice! I wonder why USB 2 rather than USB 3?
No need for usb 3. It has no new features (other than a TB port) nor does it require more bandwidth than the 828mkIII Hybrid which is usb2-FW400.
Backward compatibility?
Exactly. The Hybrid is just as usb 3 compatible as the 828x.
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by Shooshie »

First of all, to connect USB 3 to the new Mac Pro, it takes up a full lane of a PCI slot, and doesn't really give you the full capability of USB3. The reason for that has to do with Intel's CPUs, which for these machines do not have USB3 capability. Rather than to force people to waste a whole PCI lane on a gimp USB3 board, why not make it USB2 compatible, so that it can work immediately on a Mac Pro without Thunderbolt. If you're going to get one of these interfaces, run it with Thunderbolt. If you're running an old Mac Pro, use a Firewire or PCI-424 device.

The big selling machines get the new features before the workhorses. Thus, the iMac has USB3 on the Intel CPU. Eventually that will filter down to the Mac Pro's, but for now it has not made it there. It seems backward and upside down, but the Mac Pro's use older tech, but more highly developed and implemented. I'm not saying I like the way Apple does things, but that I'm more-or-less understanding the reasons.

This is all covered, by the way, in that amazing and lengthy review of the new "late 2013 Mac Pro" at Anandtech.com.

From PCIe Layout in the Anandtech review.
  • All Mac Pros ship with a PCIe x4 SSD, and those four lanes also come off the PCH. That leaves a single PCIe lane unaccounted for in the Mac Pro. Here we really get to see how much of a mess Intel’s workstation chipset lineup is: the C600/X79 PCH doesn’t natively support USB 3.0. That’s right, it’s nearly 2014 and Intel is shipping a flagship platform without USB 3.0 support. The 8th PCIe lane off of the PCH is used by a Fresco Logic USB 3.0 controller. I believe it’s the FL1100, which is a PCIe 2.0 to 4-port USB 3.0 controller. A single PCIe 2.0 lane offers a maximum of 500MB/s of bandwidth in either direction (1GB/s aggregate), which is enough for the real world max transfer rates over USB 3.0. Do keep this limitation in mind if you’re thinking about populating all four USB 3.0 ports with high-speed storage with the intent of building a low-cost Thunderbolt alternative. You’ll be bound by the performance of a single PCIe 2.0 lane.
The review is about 15 pages long, and starts HERE. Kudos to Anand Lal Shimpi for such a great piece of tech writing on a brand new Mac product.

So, that is most likely the reason that MOTU chose to implement a Thunderbolt interface with a USB2.0 backup. It's all that the new Mac Pro will handle! Use Thunderbolt!

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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by Dan Worley »

I found that ad quite annoying and I got very little information out of it. All I saw was stuff flying and flashing around, and I could barely tell what it was. I did like how they did the MOTU name at the end. That was cool.

Here's an example of some quality ads. The music is better, too.

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toodamnhip
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by toodamnhip »

Dan Worley wrote:I found that ad quite annoying and I got very little information out of it. All I saw was stuff flying and flashing around, and I could barely tell what it was. I did like how they did the MOTU name at the end. That was cool.

Here's an example of some quality ads. The music is better, too.

Um....Does the word "Modern" mean anything to you?...lol
(By the way, that "funky" horn music was with it's "groovy" beats was the equivalent of the dub step used in today's music...RAD Daddy O !)
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by mikehalloran »

. So, that is most likely the reason that MOTU chose to implement a Thunderbolt interface with a USB2.0 backup. It's all that the new Mac Pro will handle! Use Thunderbolt

Nope. You missed the point. USB 3 is not needed on the 828x. It wouldn't do anything except to make it incompatible with USB 2 devices. There are no new features requiring any bandwidth beyond USB 2 / FireWire400.

The 828x is the Hybrid with a TB port instead of a FW port. That's all it is. It will still work at FW400 over a TB connection because that's all it needs to do. They didn't even improve it by giving it two TB ports for daisy chaining.

Just to be clear, the Hybrid is FW400 even though it has the FW800 connector. Everybody knows this, right? MOTU states it clearly in their literature. Just as clearly as they state that the only difference between the X and the H are those two ports. OK then.

When I get my new machine later this year, I will probably buy an 828x unless someone still has NOS Hybrids in stock - the prices have dropped so they are being cleared out. Unless I get the nMP and the 27" Apple monitor - it has the TB-FW adapter built in so maybe I can get a few more years out of my 828mkII. I never record 192KHz.
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by Dan Worley »

toodamnhip wrote: Um....Does the word "Modern" mean anything to you?
Sure it does. Modern, mod. As in The Mod Squad.


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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by Shooshie »

mikehalloran wrote:
. So, that is most likely the reason that MOTU chose to implement a Thunderbolt interface with a USB2.0 backup. It's all that the new Mac Pro will handle! Use Thunderbolt

Nope. You missed the point. USB 3 is not needed on the 828x. It wouldn't do anything except to make it incompatible with USB 2 devices. There are no new features requiring any bandwidth beyond USB 2 / FireWire400.

The 828x is the Hybrid with a TB port instead of a FW port. That's all it is. It will still work at FW400 over a TB connection because that's all it needs to do. They didn't even improve it by giving it two TB ports for daisy chaining.
Either way, the new Mac Pro does not actually support native USB3, but a retrofitted USB3 card in a USB 2 connection. Even if MOTU were offering extended capabilities of their interface which required USB3, the MP wouldn't really support it. It's too soon for me to be up on all the patchwork used to get a signal from interface to CPU via Thunderbolt, but I'm just saying that in a year or two we'll probably see more native solutions that make it a lot simpler and smoother.

From past experiences with similar upgrades, I've learned to be cautious of all claims. For example, I bought a 2007 Mac Pro that claimed to be completely 64 bit ready, and it was... sort of. You could boot apps in 64 bits, and they could take advantage of all the RAM, but the kernel remained operative only at 32 bits, and that prohibited it from upgrading beyond Snow Leopard. (or maybe Leopard... I don't remember now) So, I bought a 2012 Mac Pro to put that machine behind me. And that's just one example of many, involving several past Macintoshes, scanners, monitors, and even MOTU audio interfaces. Sure, everything becomes obsolete, but often the first versions of new hardware are really retrofitted adaptations of existing versions. Another version or two down the road and you see much smoother implementations of native hardware.

This new Mac Pro is wonderful, but I plan to wait a couple of years before buying one, though I'm tempted to go out and get one right now. But I won't, precisely for the reasons stated above. I want native USB3.0, as well as native Thunderbolt devices. Things as they are may be fine for today, but tomorrow they'll present a problem somewhere, somehow. I'll wait.

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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by toodamnhip »

Dan Worley wrote:
toodamnhip wrote: Um....Does the word "Modern" mean anything to you?
Sure it does. Modern, mod. As in The Mod Squad.


LMAO...
I know when I’m defeated..... :surrender:
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toodamnhip
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by toodamnhip »

Shooshie wrote:
mikehalloran wrote:
. So, that is most likely the reason that MOTU chose to implement a Thunderbolt interface with a USB2.0 backup. It's all that the new Mac Pro will handle! Use Thunderbolt

Nope. You missed the point. USB 3 is not needed on the 828x. It wouldn't do anything except to make it incompatible with USB 2 devices. There are no new features requiring any bandwidth beyond USB 2 / FireWire400.

The 828x is the Hybrid with a TB port instead of a FW port. That's all it is. It will still work at FW400 over a TB connection because that's all it needs to do. They didn't even improve it by giving it two TB ports for daisy chaining.
Either way, the new Mac Pro does not actually support native USB3, but a retrofitted USB3 card in a USB 2 connection. Even if MOTU were offering extended capabilities of their interface which required USB3, the MP wouldn't really support it. It's too soon for me to be up on all the patchwork used to get a signal from interface to CPU via Thunderbolt, but I'm just saying that in a year or two we'll probably see more native solutions that make it a lot simpler and smoother.

From past experiences with similar upgrades, I've learned to be cautious of all claims. For example, I bought a 2007 Mac Pro that claimed to be completely 64 bit ready, and it was... sort of. You could boot apps in 64 bits, and they could take advantage of all the RAM, but the kernel remained operative only at 32 bits, and that prohibited it from upgrading beyond Snow Leopard. (or maybe Leopard... I don't remember now) So, I bought a 2012 Mac Pro to put that machine behind me. And that's just one example of many, involving several past Macintoshes, scanners, monitors, and even MOTU audio interfaces. Sure, everything becomes obsolete, but often the first versions of new hardware are really retrofitted adaptations of existing versions. Another version or two down the road and you see much smoother implementations of native hardware.

This new Mac Pro is wonderful, but I plan to wait a couple of years before buying one, though I'm tempted to go out and get one right now. But I won't, precisely for the reasons stated above. I want native USB3.0, as well as native Thunderbolt devices. Things as they are may be fine for today, but tomorrow they'll present a problem somewhere, somehow. I'll wait.

Shoosh
Hey Shoosh, what is your guess and hopes for the future capabilities of thunderbolt and the like?

I still hope that somehow or other all this new speed will result in latency becoming a thing of the past when using VI’s.
I recorded 4 solo jazz gtr pieces straight into my comp two days ago to “celebrate” my new PRS guitar. Throughput was “ok” at 64, I could deal with it. But I usually record at 128 with guitars on productions and on big files, can even be forced to 256 from time to time if I don’t want to stop to bounce the backing track down to stereo and record guitar on a new chunk for lowest throughput.
I am an excellent guitarist. But I am only as good as playing to WHAT I hear WHEN I hear it. Sometimes I hear the pocket of even 128 performances and feel it is ever so slightly out. Yeah, people love it, but I hear it. I sometimes even shade the performance back a touch in time to put it where I think I really played it.
Throughput Latency is something I’d love to see thrashed into non-existence in DP one fine day. I am not talking about DP compensating for latency like it boasts about, I am talking about a performer NOT having to think about it and having as close to instantaneous throughput as possible due to technology and comp speed finally getting fast enough. Hell, let’s reinvent the numbers and create audio engines at 8-16-32 ms. throughput.

What’s your wish list for all the new thunderbolt speed in years to come?
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Re: MOTU goes Thunderbolt..nice!!

Post by mikehalloran »

This new Mac Pro is wonderful, but I plan to wait a couple of years before buying one, though I'm tempted to go out and get one right now. But I won't, precisely for the reasons stated above. I want native USB3.0, as well as native Thunderbolt devices. Things as they are may be fine for today, but tomorrow they'll present a problem somewhere, somehow. I'll wait.
That makes sense. Had I purchased a Mac Pro in 2012, I'd be thinking exactly the same thing.
I still hope that somehow or other all this new speed will result in latency becoming a thing of the past when using VI’s.
Reduce, yes. Eliminate, never. The maximum speed of straight wire at near absolute 0 is the speed of light. Processors, resistors, coils and software slow it down. The only way to eliminate latency is to make audio go backwards in time.

Latency cannot be a thing of the past but, if we are lucky, we will barely be able to detect it - could happen. Heck, a 128 buffer gets us close now. Like SimulSync on a TASCAM tape head - close enough but never perfect. Sel-Sync on an Ampex could be adjusted closer in theory even if it sounded worse.
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