UAD and the new MacPro

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buzzsmith
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UAD and the new MacPro

Post by buzzsmith »

Excerpt from email just received...

"Unfortunately, UAD-2 SOLO, DUO, and QUAD PCIe cards cannot be made to work with the new Mac Pros. (See table below for full UAD/Mac compatibilities.)"

Guess I'll be staying put. (Wasn't in a rush, anyway!)

Buzzy




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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Time wounds all heels.
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MIDI LIFE CRISIS
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by James Steele »

buzzsmith wrote:Excerpt from email just received...

"Unfortunately, UAD-2 SOLO, DUO, and QUAD PCIe cards cannot be made to work with the new Mac Pros. (See table below for full UAD/Mac compatibilities.)"

Guess I'll be staying put. (Wasn't in a rush, anyway!)

Buzzy
I'm not in a rush either, but it's going to maybe cool my jets about buying any more UAD plugs. I need to find the email, but I guess this means no TB->PCIe expansion chassis compatibility? Still the case with the MOTU PCIe-424 card too so far? Maybe UA will trade them in toward Apollo?
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by James Steele »

I'm very disappointed that UA seems to be leaving UAD-2 Duo and Quad owners in the dust when it comes to compatibility with the new MacPro via expansion chassis. :( I'm going to have to learn to be happy with what I have, especially since as it stand now, my...

• MOTU PCIe-424 card
• MOTU HD192 interface
• MOTU 24 I/O interface
• UAD-2 Duo card

... will all be rendered incompatible with the new MacPro unless we get news from MOTU that the PCIe-424 will be able to work in a TB-to-PCIe expansion chassis, and UA reverses it's statement that the Duo and Quad won't be compatible with a TB-to-PCIe expansion chassis, either.

I would love to ask UA just why the UAD-2 Octo is projected to be compatible with "qualified" expansion chassis, but somehow the less expensive Duo and Quad cards aren't? In fact, it's going on my list of thing to do at NAMM in just about a month or so. I don't want to grill those guys unfairly, but I'd like to hear why. Maybe I better go peruse the UA forum. :(
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by kgdrum »

This post from UA on a GS thread explains the problem.


Universal Audio
#69
1 Day Ago
New Mac Pros and UAD-2
Hi all,

Many of you have been asking, so I wanted to take a moment and offer you some deeper information about why UAD-2 SOLO, DUO and QUAD can’t be made to work with the new Mac Pros, so here’s the scoop.

The new Mac Pros have expanded the PCIe addressing scheme, so you can you have up to 36 PCIe devices in your system (over Thunderbolt, of course). That means that PCIe cards used in that system need to support 36 Base Address Registers in order to be recognized.

The UAD-2 SOLO, DUO and QUAD cards use an earlier generation FPGA that supports 12 addresses, which was the standard implementation until now. The UAD-2 OCTO cards (as well as Apollo/Apollo 16, and both UAD-2 Satellites) are based on a later generation FPGA, which can support 36 addresses with an upcoming firmware upgrade. So it’s really as simple as that. Aside from the new Mac Pros, the SOLO, DUO and QUAD cards are compatible with the rest of the shipping Macs and most PCs.

As we all know, technology changes and it’s virtually impossible to future-proof computer products. We believe in DSP acceleration for audio processing, and our goal is to build a platform that sounds and performs amazing, provides the widest compatibility, and gives you the biggest return on your investment.

Hope that helps!

-GK

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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by James Steele »

kgdrum wrote:This post from UA on a GS thread explains the problem.]
Thanks for this...

The UAD-2 SOLO, DUO and QUAD cards use an earlier generation FPGA that supports 12 addresses, which was the standard implementation until now. The UAD-2 OCTO cards (as well as Apollo/Apollo 16, and both UAD-2 Satellites) are based on a later generation FPGA, which can support 36 addresses with an upcoming firmware upgrade. So it’s really as simple as that.
So apparently the Octo actually isn't compatible now either, but its firmware can be upgraded. For some reason the SOLO, DUO, & QUAD do not have upgradeable firmware? Bummer.

Aside from the new Mac Pros, the SOLO, DUO and QUAD cards are compatible with the rest of the shipping Macs and most PCs.
So what??!!

"Aside from the new MacPros..." Man... I hate it when manufacturers try to ease the pain of the big steaming pile of bad news they just dumped on you with a sentence as largely pointless as that one... until we get to...

As we all know, technology changes and it’s virtually impossible to future-proof computer products. We believe in DSP acceleration for audio processing, and our goal is to build a platform that sounds and performs amazing, provides the widest compatibility, and gives you the biggest return on your investment.
I know they probably do have a good reason, but I could do without the corporate fluff portions of that statement. Frankly, with computers getting so powerful, and although I like UA's plugs, I have to wonder if audio plug ins that are dependent on proprietary DSP are going to be a waste of money as computers become more powerful. THIS announcement of the very FINAL end-of-life for my UAD-2 DUO has really opened my eyes and made me question the wisdom of every buying dedicated DSP again. I have friends who stayed native and I have to wonder if they outsmarted me here. Perhaps the Apollo is going to be okay because it's TB.

I'll just wait and see if my MOTU PCI interfaces are destined for the same fate. :(
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by kgdrum »

James Steele wrote:
kgdrum wrote:This post from UA on a GS thread explains the problem.]
Thanks for this...

The UAD-2 SOLO, DUO and QUAD cards use an earlier generation FPGA that supports 12 addresses, which was the standard implementation until now. The UAD-2 OCTO cards (as well as Apollo/Apollo 16, and both UAD-2 Satellites) are based on a later generation FPGA, which can support 36 addresses with an upcoming firmware upgrade. So it’s really as simple as that.
So apparently the Octo actually isn't compatible now either, but its firmware can be upgraded. For some reason the SOLO, DUO, & QUAD do not have upgradeable firmware? Bummer.

Aside from the new Mac Pros, the SOLO, DUO and QUAD cards are compatible with the rest of the shipping Macs and most PCs.
So what??!!

"Aside from the new MacPros..." Man... I hate it when manufacturers try to ease the pain of the big steaming pile of bad news they just dumped on you with a sentence as largely pointless as that one... until we get to...

As we all know, technology changes and it’s virtually impossible to future-proof computer products. We believe in DSP acceleration for audio processing, and our goal is to build a platform that sounds and performs amazing, provides the widest compatibility, and gives you the biggest return on your investment.
I know they probably do have a good reason, but I could do without the corporate fluff portions of that statement. Frankly, with computers getting so powerful, and although I like UA's plugs, I have to wonder if audio plug ins that are dependent on proprietary DSP are going to be a waste of money as computers become more powerful. THIS announcement of the very FINAL end-of-life for my UAD-2 DUO has really opened my eyes and made me question the wisdom of every buying dedicated DSP again. I have friends who stayed native and I have to wonder if they outsmarted me here. Perhaps the Apollo is going to be okay because it's TB.

I'll just wait and see if my MOTU PCI interfaces are destined for the same fate. :(



fwiw,as I understand it the Apollo is not actually native Thunderbolt technology I think they are utilizing a FW to TB adaptor, I vaguely remember that being discussed last year and I think it didn't seem important then to most of us.......

I suspect this will have a big impact on many users and companies, think about all of the ProTools users who will need new cards,all of the people who bought chassis(Magma) to house cards to run PT rigs and UAD cards etc.....
I suspect all companies that use the older PCI technology will have the same problem as UA has and haven't addressed it yet.
I really expect UA to do the right thing for their users like they did last year with the UAD1 card rebates.
Last year I sold my 3 UAD1 cards and was pleased to get $200 for all 3 cards,a few months later UA gave users $200 for EACH card,so this time I'm wating to see what solution UA comes up with.
Initially my reaction after seeing the email from UA (I have a Quad and an Octo card) was I should sell the Quad card immediately but I really don"t see myself buying into a new platform (New MacPro) with all of these 1st generation obstacles.
I'm sure UA already knows they will have to help customers or they will alienate too may long time users,
For now if I upgrade my Mac to 2010-2013 old style MacPro, I will have no problem using the present cards for the next couple of years,in the meantime if UA comes up with a great rebate program i might just take advantage of whatever program they offer if it's worthwhile.
We all know technology keeps moving forward but Apple seems relentless in changing the standards and leaving legacy users behind without any explanations or remorse.
These moves affect users and small companies enormously, my feelings about Apples way of constantly changing the goal lines & standards without remorse makes me more than a bit queazy.......
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by mikehalloran »

my feelings about Apples way of constantly changing the goal lines & standards without remorse makes me more than a bit queazy
Queazy? Oh my...

Well, the stability of the Windows platform is always out there, I suppose. :lol: :lol: :) :)

Seriously... The old Mac Pro isn't going to stop working just because UAD isn't willing to figure out a way to update the firmware on their cards. (yet?). It may involve a chip swap but I'll bet that it will be possible if they want it to be.

Any lets be clear, no one is shipping a TB interface yet. As you correctly pointed out, some have slapped a TB-FW adapter onto older hardware including UAD and Apogee but no one has announced anything to take advantage of the potential that Thunderbolt has to offer. Let's hope that someone does so by NAMM because this is getting ridiculous.
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by James Steele »

I understand, but I do think that we are reaching a point with computers, where it may be time to re-think investing in proprietary DSP solutions. Seems "native" is more future proof.
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by HCMarkus »

"...this is getting ridiculous."
The thing is, Thunderbolt is such an overkill for audio, I can see why it hasn't been a pressing issue for audio interface manufacturers. It seems that the future for most folk may lie with either USB or Ethernet.

If MOTU is still selling a significant number of their PCIe systems, which as we know can support four 2408s (96 channels of i/o), I fully expect they will upgrade the 424 to either a new, compatible card or, more likely, a Thunderbolt - Audiowire breakout box, hopefully shipping by the time the nMP is on the FedEx trucks to customers. It should be piece of cake. But Thunderbolt i/o on a single interface is so much more than is needed, and USB is already implemented very well... the current status doesn't seem ridiculous at all to me.

I am happily using every analog and digital input (and about half the outputs) on my 828mkII, and it performs beautifully with FW400. Audio ain't 4k video, folks.
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by HCMarkus »

James Steele wrote:I understand, but I do think that we are reaching a point with computers, where it may be time to re-think investing in proprietary DSP solutions. Seems "native" is more future proof.
I agree James.

The need for audio DSP external to the CPU (and maybe GPU someday) has come and gone.
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by mikehalloran »

Then you have clearly misunderstood me. There is no replacement for the PCIe platform nor is there forward compatability announced for the legacy hardware.

You point out that a 424 card will support ... True. Where is the TB or USB interface that will support the same? Where is the HD192-USB? You imply that overall, the total market for this is small. You wouldn't know it by the wailing on this and a few other boards but I'm pretty certain that is correct.

Thunderbolt has been available on the Mac for nearly three years now. FW had been on life support for over 5 and is practically dead.

That we're going into year four without an announcement is ridiculous. MOTU hasn't made any at all. UAD's are just silly. The TB-2 spec from Intel has been known for quite awhile. Apple announced the Mac Pro was going to embrace it when?

Apple doesn't set standards in a vacuum. That FireWire held on is a testament to their marketing clout but Intel never supported it. IBM/Motorola couldn't keep up a PPC that would run efficiently, enter Intel. Intel supports TB, TB-2 and USB 3. There it is. All of the misguided bitching and moaning is not going to change that. If it makes some queasy, take a pill.

I agree that TB is overkill. USB 3 is too. Neither are available from anyone. So what? It is up to MOTU and UAD to cater to their customers if they want to keep them.

PCI card owners are the ones crying for a replacement. I have never been one of them. Even if one were available, I wouldn't be buying anything to make my 2408 useful again. I have no need for it.

I have no dog in this fight. My 2408 is on perma-loan to a friend and I don't care if I never see it back. My last performance car was a '61 Jaguar but I never used it for anything important - I feel the same way about UAD.

The PCI address issue is telling me that a standard chassis will never work with the cards as they are - drivers can't solve the problem. The cards themselves will need a firmware upgrade - most likely have to be sent back to the factory or a third party to have new ROMs installed (ideally on sockets). Similar to the way that my MTP AV had to be upgraded to work with my iMac. Either that or a 524 card will have to be announced to work with a standard expansion chassis.

No matter what needs to be done, it should be at least announced by NAMM. This is the PCIe card makers' problem, not Apple's.

I am just the messenger. I got upset when MacInTax no longer worked on my Mac+ but I got over it. So will everyone abandoned by this march forward in technology if there's never a replacement,

If the 2014 NAMM comes and goes without an announcement, I don't even want to read these boards for awhile.
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote:The PCI address issue is telling me that a standard chassis will never work with the cards as they are - drivers can't solve the problem. The cards themselves will need a firmware upgrade - most likely have to be sent back to the factory or a third party to have new ROMs installed (ideally on sockets). Similar to the way that my MTP AV had to be upgraded to work with my iMac. Either that or a 524 card will have to be announced to work with a standard expansion chassis.
That is something I'm fine with, and happy to pay for. And yes, I read the post made by UA that it's a firmware issue and so like you said, drivers can't necessarily solve the problem. A new card or a TB breakout box that connects to Audiowire MOTU interfaces would be nice.

I don't anticipating getting a new MacPro anytime soon either. I just upgraded to a MacPro 4,1 and I'm happy so far and by and large everything works, although I'm wondering if I might have been wise to hang back with Mountain Lion. I will say that the HD192 is a decent interface and the converts are pretty good. If I can keep it in service, I see no reason I wouldn't want to. I imagine long after the new MacPro is onto its second and third generation, I'll still be doing projects in 24bit/44.1k. There's going to be no need to shell out for another audio interface.

If the 2014 NAMM comes and goes without an announcement, I don't even want to read these boards for awhile.
As is your prerogative. That's how I feel after there's a new major release of DP, because there will be a flood of posts griping that this or that pet issue still exists. Still, in my gut, I think I'll lay off hardware DSP in the future. Back when I bought the DUO, I don't think you can say I should have seen this coming. But Apple decided to ditch slots and go with a totally new form factor and it is what it is as you point out. And yes... we'll have no choice but to get over it, won't we?

Do you own any UAD hardware? I think you said you don't.
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by mikehalloran »

No, I never sprung for UAD cards. I would have had I needed them and the budget warranted the expense.

I have spent so much money on obsolete recording gear that I would probably curl up in a corner and just shake if I ever tried to add it up. Nah... I have been doing this since the early '70s.

I make my living with my Mac. It's a tool. Computers are not a hobby of mine. I'm really good at them because I always want them to work. Know thine enemy - mine is a non-functioning Mac or PC when I'm trying to get something done.

Everything is declared, everything depreciates. I factor recovery costs, expense what I must. If there's value when it's time to dispose, then great. If not, then there isn't.

Maybe when I retire, I'll hire someone to drag some of those analog machines out of my basement, replace the drive belts, bake my tapes and digitalize them. Then I'll be done with that stuff. Till then, I hope I never have to sell my other house - no idea where I'd store that old junk. Till then, it's paid for and I don't cry over what it cost new.

Same with my old Macs and related hardware. It has recently occurred to me that I haven't used my external MIDI gear since 2004. I even updated my MTP AV to work with my iMac - haven't used it once since I did.
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Re: UAD and the new MacPro

Post by James Steele »

Oh, okay. Just wondered what attracted you to this topic if you weren't a UAD owner.
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