Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

[Michael Canavan]

Sadly, if MOTU really wants to influence these folks, they need to just run more ads showing particular artists using DP so the demographic that's painfully concerned about how they are perceived by others will know it's okay to use a mature tool like DP.

Oh god! I'm literally dying laughing reading this!

Very well put. I actually really love Ableton Live, it does what it does really well, but the audience for it is definitely ^^that crowd. Like I said, Ableton have seminars here all the time, so I've met quite a few kids just like this, questions from the audience about what X DJ is using to make X sound.

I think personally I thought at first that the discussion here would be more about DP as the de facto Mercedes, and the question of how we as rabid fanboys can help sell that image. I don't mind doing publicity for products I like.

[toodamnhip]

It doesn't matter if I'm a DP user form [sic] 1993 or from 3 days ago. My opinion, as a customer, matters just as much as yours.

Not really. If a customer doesn't know how to use the program and bitches that it sucks (when, in fact, they just don't know how to use it or they have an incompatibility they were unaware of) loosing that customer is not such a big deal. If a customer with 10 or 20 years of experience using the app successfully turns negative, then it is possible something else is going on and others may be experiencing the problem. Not that new customers aren't critical, but if your "opinion" is based on misinformation and/or your lack of experience and familiarity then that opinion really is kind of worthless IMO.

You mean when I am forced to use Pro Tools for time stretching, after 20+ yrs of DP ?...lol

[Shooshie]

It doesn't matter if I'm a DP user form [sic] 1993 or from 3 days ago. My opinion, as a customer, matters just as much as yours.

Not really. If a customer doesn't know how to use the program and bitches that it sucks (when, in fact, they just don't know how to use it or they have an incompatibility they were unaware of) loosing that customer is not such a big deal. If a customer with 10 or 20 years of experience using the app successfully turns negative, then it is possible something else is going on and others may be experiencing the problem. Not that new customers aren't critical, but if your "opinion" is based on misinformation and/or your lack of experience and familiarity then that opinion really is kind of worthless IMO.

You mean when I am forced to use Pro Tools for time stretching, after 20+ yrs of DP ?...lol

I've always said that Mach Five "completes" DP. If you have Mach Five 3, you can do time stretching with the IRCAM tools, and it probably beats what you can get out of Pro Tools. But I don't do much time stretching, and when I do, it's probably like one second out of a 5 minute segment, so I really don't know how well Mach 5.3 does it. I'm just going off what other people have said about it. Anyway, Mach 5.3 really enhances Digital Performer. It's a good thing to have around.

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

However, and I do not ask this sarcastically but with all sincerity, where do you think the free flow of ideas fits into all of this? If we cannot all express our concerns and thoughts HERE....freely..where can we do so? I'd hate to believe we lose freedom of opinion for fear of the internet grabbing what we say and spewing it all about. It is a fine line is it not? The day people cannot speak freely for fear of consequence is a dark day indeed. Yes, we cannot yell FIRE in a theatre, but at the same time, can we not say we are worried about DP market share amongst young people without worrying the whole internet will turn on MOTU? I think the OP post seems fairly mild compared to all the reaction that has built up AFTER his original post. Unless I have missed something, the "much ado about nothing" came AFTER the original post with the OP being fairly mild and respectful. It is that "much ado about nothing" AFTER an original RESPECTFUL post, that concerns me. I just didn't see the original post as coming off as bad as all the reaction after. I read it again, it seems honest and respectful.

I'm going to just use this section, TDH, as a jumping off point for my comments which I hope will be brief, but probably not. I view much of this topic as a waste of time.

First, the whole First Amendment "what-dark-times-are-these" dramatic overtones to this sentiment is a bit much to me. Hey... this is a private board. People have the WHOLE DAMNED INTERNET with which to say whatever the hell they want. And they do. I started this board myself. I was just a user who enjoyed DP. I didn't start this board as some civics project, or to have a place where all could come to analyze MOTU's market share to death. I'm just a guy. Just a user. This isn't MOTU. I have no responsibility to YOU or to anybody else. If I wanted to, I could just eliminate the whole off topic section tomorrow and then all the ruminating threads could go live on some other board. That's totally within my rights to do so.

I envisioned this board as a place for DIGITAL PERFORMER USERS to help each other use the software more effectively. Naturally troubleshooting comes with it and that was split into a different forum because the troubleshooting sort of took over. Takes much more energy and generosity to come to this forum to share something you've learned or a technique to get more out of DP. Most people come here to *take* something. "I have a problem. Help me fix it now. Okay, that helps. I may or may not even come back to say 'Thanks, that fixed it.'" Or they can come here to harp on an issue they have or they can come here to second guess how MOTU runs their business and we can wring our hands about the company's future. All those things have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I ENVISIONED AND HAD HOPED FOR THIS PLACE WHEN I STARTED THE BOARD. So with all due respect, TDH, please don't lecture me about what should or should not be talked about on this board. I've told people over and over that the phpBB.com software is available for free. Nothing stops anybody from starting a board like this themselves and running it. Have at it. Then you decide what should be there.

We have ample criticism of MOTU here. And frankly this board itself doesn't take positions. I have expressed my opinion as an INDIVIDUAL. That is my right. So have others. So TDH, if some people disagree with you on this, you'll just have to suck it up. I know few people that are as forceful and direct with their opinions on this board, TDH, as you. So if other people express an opinion the other way, that's their right. If one's personal position is to defend MOTU, how is that somehow less noble than the position of the one who criticizes? It's just OPINION. If you can't handle someone having an opinion different than yours that's your problem. As I mentioned, I and others express our opinions here IN OUR CAPACITY AS INDIVIDUALS. Same as you. Why are the opinions of those on one side of the issue less valid? Terms to invalidate those people have even been invented on the net, like "fanboy" etc.

As for obsessing over whether the new breed of "musicians", many of whom throw pre-recorded loops together to create a so-called "original" work, are the demographic that MOTU should be all hot and bothered about is up for debate, which is exactly what we've been doing here. I have said that certain features would be useful in DP. However it can't be all things to all people.

"Opinions are like noses... they all smell..." goes the cleaned-up version of an old saying. So let me express my criticism. MOTU's apparent play for the "youth" segment (as I guess we can identify it) seemed evident some years ago with a whole flood of stomp-box effects, amp modeling... etc. It felt like it was energy expended to appeal to those kids who wear the skinny jeans, have cool facial hair, and think built-in guitar stompboxes have a cool factor that trump the underlying power and functionality of a DAW. Of course some of these Gen Y kids are easily swayed by marketing and can be led around by their noses if you can only convince them that something's cool. Sadly, if MOTU really wants to influence these folks, they need to just run more ads showing particular artists using DP so the demographic that's painfully concerned about how they are perceived by others will know it's okay to use a mature tool like DP.

I'm rambling now. Sorry. My point is that all those guitar stompbox effects MOTU added to DP had absolutely no appeal to me. I'd rather the effort been spent on addressing some longstanding issues or adding something to the actual DAW functionality... that is the nuts and bolts of recording and editing MIDI and audio tracks. Yeah... I'm a dinosaur. I record an amp with a microphone. There are zillions of third party plugs out there. So MOTU must have felt compelled still to try to "stuff more in the box" to appease the BLCW contingent out there. (BLCW = "But Logic Comes With...")

Personally, rather than stick an Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirt on DP and get it to grow a cool beard and adopt the scraggly but hip look, maybe more publicity about the TOP PROFESSIONALS IN THE BUSINESS using DP both in the studio and in live shows. How many major tours are using Digital Performer in support? LOTS.

I'm okay if DP does not become the tool of choice for DJs, "re-mixers" and loop tweakers, because I do fear that trying to hammer DP into something that appeals to that segment might compromise its current strengths in pursuit of a demographic that may not be enticed to come over anyway.

But what do I know. I'm just shooting from the hip... expressing my opinion as an INDIVIDUAL like everyone else here. I'm not losing sleep over whether the hip kid at the coffee shop open mic night is using DP or Garage Band. Too busy for that right now.

Well bro, I wasn’t “lecturing” you on the 1st amendment as much as bringing it up for discussion in light of your stated sensitivity to internet gossip. I was interested in YOUR thoughts on how to ride the fine line between open discussion and not wanting to hurt DP. The fact that you read it as a lecture shows the stigma my past posts or the past posts of others have created in you. If it is all me because I am an ass or something, well, I have cost myself the ability to discuss things in a manner that does not elicit defensiveness. It also shows the liabilities of TYPING discussions as one cannot hear the tone of voice and can mis-understand meaning as a result. But I DID just want to know your thoughts on the matter and did not think to “lecture “ you, I feel you must know the 1st amendment already.

It is your board, you are right that you do not have to do a damned thing here and, forceful or not, I have always publicly thanked you for your work here.
I know for a fact that you have more patience than I would have with this board and maybe a grey hair or two will come to you from the yrs of “patience”. So again, I thank you while simultaneously wishing critical opinions about DP or even “wondering” opinions like the one that started this thread, could come up without as much controversy. I guess they can;t and anyone that says anything critical of DP will be subject to the equally valid opinion of others to attack them somewhat personally as suspect, a mole, or whatever.

I found the original post to be polite and just an expression of concern.

I find this board and your patience in general to be worthy of a nobel music prize....for what it’s worth.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

There are other tools for that [time stretching] and that's not the only criteria for a DAW. I'm sure we can find a few areas where DP exceeds PT as well. If that balances out to PT being better for you, use that. Please!

Personally, I don't use DP for everything. Time stretching happens in MachFive which is exceptional. Finale for notation. Yadda yadda yadda.

I think you're missing the point; or do you think time stretching is resulting in the death of DP? Some people say it looping. Others want better (fill in the blank) ___________.

If people are feeling like a dying breed or that there are deficiencies that are insurmountable, perhaps they are simply reflecting and projecting their own insecurities into what they perceive as the root of their problems. People tend to find issues with things they are obsessed with. They often blame the tool, not the craftsman. Others just solve the problems with ingenuity and get the job done without bitching. We can all ask ourselves: which one am I?

Be honest. It's important.

[toodamnhip]

I've always said that Mach Five "completes" DP. If you have Mach Five 3, you can do time stretching with the IRCAM tools, and it probably beats what you can get out of Pro Tools. But I don't do much time stretching, and when I do, it's probably like one second out of a 5 minute segment, so I really don't know how well Mach 5.3 does it. I'm just going off what other people have said about it. Anyway, Mach 5.3 really enhances Digital Performer. It's a good thing to have around. Shooshie

I have had to time stretch whole orchestras lately WHILE mixing. I have Mach 5.3. I don;t think I could do it nearly the job I need done, especially when it comes to stretching the timing of the whole orchestra on faster sections where the whole Orch gets off from the drums or don;t lock with the drums. I am talking about stretching individual notes over the whole orchestra as needed amongst 40 tracks of strings simultaneously. This could not be done in DP nor Mach 5. This is a major conductor by the way, not some hack. Pro Tools does this great and I hope DP someday revises their time stretch algorithm to be just as good. That said, I have found that DP usually beats Melodyne for pitch work, but again, NOT for time stretch.

I bought Mach 5.3 to actually time stretch and Key change a record I did. I was fairly impressed with the time stretch in the Star Wars example. Unfortunately, after careful tests, iztope RX won out and I have used Mach 5 sparingly ever since. It is an ok product and I hope to learn to use it more as libraries I am interested in become available for it.

This is now all a bit off the subject. I don;t think time stretch makes Dp a dinosaur or makes it a dying breed or anything

[toodamnhip]

There are other tools for that [time stretching] and that's not the only criteria for a DAW. I'm sure we can find a few areas where DP exceeds PT as well. If that balances out to PT being better for you, use that. Please!

Personally, I don't use DP for everything. Time stretching happens in MachFive which is exceptional. Finale for notation. Yadda yadda yadda.

I think you're missing the point; or do you think time stretching is resulting in the death of DP? Some people say it looping. Others want better (fill in the blank) ___________.

If people are feeling like a dying breed or that there are deficiencies that are insurmountable, perhaps they are simply reflecting and projecting their own insecurities into what they perceive as the root of their problems. People tend to find issues with things they are obsessed with. They often blame the tool, not the craftsman. Others just solve the problems with ingenuity and get the job done without bitching. We can all ask ourselves: which one am I?

Be honest. It's important.

There are MANY areas where DP is the best, that’s why I use it all day.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat."

~ Confucius

[Shooshie]

I've always said that Mach Five "completes" DP. If you have Mach Five 3, you can do time stretching with the IRCAM tools, and it probably beats what you can get out of Pro Tools. But I don't do much time stretching, and when I do, it's probably like one second out of a 5 minute segment, so I really don't know how well Mach 5.3 does it. I'm just going off what other people have said about it. Anyway, Mach 5.3 really enhances Digital Performer. It's a good thing to have around. Shooshie

I have had to time stretch whole orchestras lately WHILE mixing. I have Mach 5.3. I don;t think I could do it nearly the job I need done, especially when it comes to stretching the timing of the whole orchestra on faster sections where the whole Orch gets off from the drums or don;t lock with the drums. I am talking about stretching individual notes over the whole orchestra as needed amongst 40 tracks of strings simultaneously. This could not be done in DP nor Mach 5. This is a major conductor by the way, not some hack. Pro Tools does this great and I hope DP someday revises their time stretch algorithm to be just as good. That said, I have found that DP usually beats Melodyne for pitch work, but again, NOT for time stretch.

I bought Mach 5.3 to actually time stretch and Key change a record I did. I was fairly impressed with the time stretch in the Star Wars example. Unfortunately, after careful tests, iztope RX won out and I have used Mach 5 sparingly ever since. It is an ok product and I hope to learn to use it more as libraries I am interested in become available for it.

This is now all a bit off the subject. I don;t think time stretch makes Dp a dinosaur or makes it a dying breed or anything

Yeah, I can see how Mach Five would be a little unwieldy for time stretching an orchestra while mixing. Thanks for setting me straight on that. There's nothing wrong with using Pro Tools for what you need it for. I DO wish that MOTU would put advanced time stretching right into DP for us. And a few other things. But I sure love using it, regardless of what it may need added someday.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat."

~ Confucius

Ok, now you've really got me confused. Just who isn't this cat, and why are we not seeing him?

[toodamnhip]

"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat."

~ Confucius

Ok, now you've really got me confused. Just who isn't this cat, and why are we not seeing him?

Because we’re confused---ious......

[James Steele]

I DO wish that MOTU would put advanced time stretching right into DP for us.

I do too. One more step toward being able to be all things to all people. I'm not being sarcastic there. In the sales business it's called dealing with "objections." With any product, with a little investigation, you will always be able to find a flaw. So MOTU will hopefully license that from IRCAM, built it in, and they swat down that particular objection. Then we can move on to another.

Remember when "Save While Playing" was a big one? "Oh hell no... I'm not going to save while DP is stopped!" And then autosaves too. And multiple-undos was a biggie. Gradually they build this stuff in. Most of the features that were "mountains" for some, were indeed "mole hills" for me. Minor inconveniences that never really impeded my doing what I needed to, or caused me to covet another DAW. The "grass is greener" phenomenon. All DAWs have their strengths and their weaknesses. I think we arrive at favorites when a particular DAW's strengths fit the way WE work. For someone like me who views a DAW as a multi-track machine on steroids for recording 3-4 minute hard rock and metal songs ( ) DP is right up my alley. Hence I'm a "fanboy!"

[toodamnhip]

I DO wish that MOTU would put advanced time stretching right into DP for us.

I do too. One more step toward being able to be all things to all people. I'm not being sarcastic there. In the sales business it's called dealing with "objections." With any product, with a little investigation, you will always be able to find a flaw. So MOTU will hopefully license that from IRCAM, built it in, and they swat down that particular objection. Then we can move on to another.

Remember when "Save While Playing" was a big one? "Oh hell no... I'm not going to save while DP is stopped!" And then autosaves too. And multiple-undos was a biggie. Gradually they build this stuff in. Most of the features that were "mountains" for some, were indeed "mole hills" for me. Minor inconveniences that never really impeded my doing what I needed to, or caused me to covet another DAW. The "grass is greener" phenomenon. All DAWs have their strengths and their weaknesses. I think we arrive at favorites when a particular DAW's strengths fit the way WE work. For someone like me who views a DAW as a multi-track machine on steroids for recording 3-4 minute hard rock and metal songs ( ) DP is right up my alley. Hence I'm a "fanboy!"

It’s a bit strange that you ended up being the founder of the greatest forum for Dp when one considers the fact that you use it as a multi track machine for the most part. Though I know you must know how to do much more than record multi track style, one would think that that the founder of this forum would be some MIDI wiz that had 17 virtual orchestras going simultaneously. Some sort of Hans Zimmer or something..lol... Very interesting indeed.

[James Steele]

Geez... Again CLARIFY, CLARIFY, CLARIFY. I mentioned MIDI didn't I? I use virtual instruments all the time mocking up drum parts before they get replaced with the real thing, for keyboard parts, percussion, etc. And gosh I use the effects all the time and I'm mixing in the box. Seriously, you have to just be so careful with words apparently. What I don't do much of is orchestral mock ups and the sort of thing you do, TDH. I'm primarily using DP to write and record hard rock. Is that okay or do you have to be an orchestral composer to run this forum?

[toodamnhip]

Geez... Again CLARIFY, CLARIFY, CLARIFY. I mentioned MIDI didn't I? I use virtual instruments all the time mocking up drum parts before they get replaced with the real thing, for keyboard parts, percussion, etc. And gosh I use the effects all the time and I'm mixing in the box. Seriously, you have to just be so careful with words apparently. What I don't do much of is orchestral mock ups and the sort of thing you do, TDH. I'm primarily using DP to write and record hard rock. Is that okay or do you have to be an orchestral composer to run this forum?

CLARIFY, CLARIFY, CLARIFY,
Did you think I said you HAVE TO be an orchestral guy to run this forum or that somehow you don;t deserve to run it? That’s not what I said.

CLARIFY, CLARIFY, CLARIFY

If I were to IMAGINE the founder of a forum such as this, i would IMAGINE it to be a guy that doesn’t mainly use DP as a tape machine...which is what you said more or less.

CLARIFY, CLARIFY, CLARIFY

I had in no way whatsoever , meant to question your qualifications. I was amused at what you said and thought it interesting. I know and knew you did MIDI mock ups.

CLARIFY, CLARIFY, CLARIFY

I am now convinced you are jaded against anything I say and take it badly. That’s a drag.