Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

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Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by James Steele »

Hey all... I just needed to ask some advice of those who have maybe done this before:

I'm in the beginning stages of putting together a band to perform my original music and I'm planning on flying in some of the keyboard parts as audio tracks. I'm hot and heavy on using an iPad to do this that will be positioned back by my drummer. He'll have earbuds and be able to hear a guidetrack and a click. Meaning one audio track will have a voice that gives the name of the song at the beginning than an actual verbal count "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8" (two bars but count eight for safety's sake in case playback starts late, whatever) before the click then starts.

I'm planning on using an iPad DAW called Meteor that I like very much. The plan is that while it is playing back audio, I can also have a MIDI interface attached to it and get it to change all the patches in my guitar rig for me as well. No more tap dancing.

Here's one of my primary concerns however:

A lot of guys locally are doing this in small clubs (the backing tracks thing) on a song or two from iPods, etc. and using just the stereo outs. The click is hard panned left, a MONO mix of the backing tracks are panned hard right and then that mono mix of the backing tracks goes to the house PA.

In a lot of these situations, especially as an original act, you have minimal setup and you never know what you're going to get with the house FOH engineer. My first question though is that would I be better off trying to get an interface for the iPad with four discrete outputs (Focusrite Scarlett series is supposed to work and has MIDI interface) and try to have "stems" for the mix engineer? For example, synth and keys on one output, sound effects on another, perhaps some backing vocals on another (having issues with band members singing... don't ask!). My concern is, and perhaps I'm overthinking this, that a mono blend of these various elements that sounds good when set in a rehearsal studio or my recording studio may sound funky in the acoustics of a club and that stems might allow a soundman to make adjustments with "like sounds" to compensate for room deficiencies or whatever that I can't anticipate pre-mixing everything.

Anyway... any advice is appreciated. Frankly, as a old school rocker, who has never really used backing tracks in actual performance, I'm deeply concerned about it because of the "trainwreck" potential should the drummer not be able to keep with the click (he's doing fine in rehearsals) or some sort of equipment/technical failure. :(
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by David Polich »

James, I can only comment from my perspective which is, live with my tribute bands, I use my 2009 MacBook running DP 8.05, into a MOTU Ultralite Hybrid Mk3. From the Ultralite, I'm sending four outs - main left and right out carry the music mix, analog output 1 carries the vocal tracks (all mixed to mono) and analog output 2 carries the click. I have an onstage submixer that feeds the house and separate D.I.'s for the vox and the click. The submixer has pre and post aux sends, so I can route separate feeds of music, vox, and click to the drummer without going out to the house (the house gets a completely separate mix from main outs of the submixer, and the vocals feed the D.I. going to the house). Aux 2 which is post feeds my onstage monitor. I can dial in whatever amounts of music and vox I and the drummer need, separate from what is going to the house. It's very flexible, allows me complete control over who is getting what, and of course the click only appears in the drummer's headphones.

It's a bit costly, but I highly recommend the Ultralite combined with the
laptop running DP. Very solid and reliable, and you aren't restricted to the number of audio tracks you can play back, or where you can start and stop the songs. In fact, Ultralites are what are used for the David Foster shows (Pro Tools) and also for the Cure tours (Logic), and I know they're used by Mike McKnight for the Roger Waters and Who tours as well.
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by mhschmieder »

James, I can try to find other write-ups I've done later, as the more detailed ones are probably over at the hard-to-search Keyboard Corner forum, but the one thing I can say with certainty is that you'll have fewer FOH problems if you try to avoid having much bottom end in your backing tracks. This will minimize the variation between songs, the amount of screwing-up that an FOH engineer can do, and the variance according to the gear being used.

It's been a couple of years now since I needed to use backing tracks for any project I'm involved in, but your strategy is solid, sticking to dual mono. If you had four tracks I would instead recommend stereo audio for the backing and a separate mono cue for the lead singer as they usually need different cues from the drummer. In our case, we just had our singer be dependent on the drummer communicating well with them on stage. We did pretty well with the dual mono approach.

Sound-wise, stick to dry sounds like temple blocks for the basic beat, as they have a good solid and fat attack but no confusing resonance. Quarter notes are best, and for cues I usually double with a cowbell at quarters for one bar and then one to two bars of eighths (two bars if there's a pickup in that bar and the player or singer needs a bit longer to adjust to the tempo or catch the cue than if it is foreshortened due to the pickup -- especially if it's mid-measure).

Those are the basics, and it sounds like you already have them covered, except for maybe trying to keep your backing tracks out of the bottom end of the frequency spectrum.
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by James Steele »

Thanks David. Maybe at some point, but right now, I think I can get the tracks I need out of the iPad. I'm hesitant to be dragging the laptop and interface into some of the clubs if I can avoid it. :(
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by mhschmieder »

Separately, commenting on Dave's post as he has pro-level world experience, that sounds like an ideal approach, but I'm a little confused about the vocal track. Is this a monitor channel of live vocals, or a separation of backing vocals that are pre-recorded? If the latter, I can especially see how those would be essential to separate and to do whatever it takes to get the gear that supports more than two channels for backing tracks. If the former, then who all gets the vocal monitoring? Does the drummer get it in their other ear?
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by James Steele »

mhschmieder wrote:James, I can try to find other write-ups I've done later, as the more detailed ones are probably over at the hard-to-search Keyboard Corner forum, but the one thing I can say with certainty is that you'll have fewer FOH problems if you try to avoid having much bottom end in your backing tracks. This will minimize the variation between songs, the amount of screwing-up that an FOH engineer can do, and the variance according to the gear being used.

It's been a couple of years now since I needed to use backing tracks for any project I'm involved in, but your strategy is solid, sticking to dual mono. If you had four tracks I would instead recommend stereo audio for the backing and a separate mono cue for the lead singer as they usually need different cues from the drummer. In our case, we just had our singer be dependent on the drummer communicating well with them on stage. We did pretty well with the dual mono approach.

Sound-wise, stick to dry sounds like temple blocks for the basic beat, as they have a good solid and fat attack but no confusing resonance. Quarter notes are best, and for cues I usually double with a cowbell at quarters for one bar and then one to two bars of eighths (two bars if there's a pickup in that bar and the player or singer needs a bit longer to adjust to the tempo or catch the cue than if it is foreshortened due to the pickup -- especially if it's mid-measure).

Those are the basics, and it sounds like you already have them covered, except for maybe trying to keep your backing tracks out of the bottom end of the frequency spectrum.
Thanks. Well, I'm the lead singer, and more or less once the song is set in motion, it's on the steady click from that point on. We all stay with the drummer. The backing tracks are primarily flying in keyboards and any SFX. I didn't WANT to have to do any backing vocals, but that's now a dilemma I find myself in. Because the material is pretty much hard rock and I'll be adding a second guitarist, there are some songs with no keyboards and other songs where there are very simple "texture" type parts. I wanted to avoid having a keyboard player that had to excuse himself every other song. The flip side of that is I didn't want to feel obligated to force keyboards into every song whether it felt called for or not either. Not against having a keyboard player necessarily at this point, because I'm up against it now because a member who represented they could sing backups is now backing away from it and leaving me in a jam. Alas.

I also do not currently own a laptop I consider adequate... I have an old G4 iBook and I don't have faith necessarily in it's reliability, so for now, I'm pressing forward with the goal of driving this from an iPad. Easiest solution would be something along the lines of the Alesis iDock or Behringer makes one, but again... I think thinking a discreet out might be nice. I know in may house PAs, stereo isn't a necessity, however in one song there's some SFX and it might be "cute" to be able to pan it about.

Thanks for the input so far. :) Keep in mind that because I'm doing original metal/hard rock, many of these club gigs are the sorts of affairs where you may have 3-4 bands in a night and you have to setup quickly and the thoroughness of one's soundcheck is suspect. I'm trying to make this as "braindead" as possible for a FOH engineer. Again, thanks to those who have offered suggestions.
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by James Steele »

mhschmieder wrote:Separately, commenting on Dave's post as he has pro-level world experience, that sounds like an ideal approach, but I'm a little confused about the vocal track. Is this a monitor channel of live vocals, or a separation of backing vocals that are pre-recorded? If the latter, I can especially see how those would be essential to separate and to do whatever it takes to get the gear that supports more than two channels for backing tracks. If the former, then who all gets the vocal monitoring? Does the drummer get it in their other ear?
If backing vocal tracks become necessary, then yes, they'd be pre-recorded backing vocal augmentation. I HATE the idea of that, mind you, but I'm facing a dilemma that I outlined. As far as the drummer goes, we've been rehearsing them with ear buds that aren't completely isolated, he's getting hearing the click, but he can also hear other things around him. I'm trying to avoid getting into a situation where I'm setting up headphones with a monitor mix for the drummer. Sigh.
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by David Polich »

mhschmieder wrote:Separately, commenting on Dave's post as he has pro-level world experience, that sounds like an ideal approach, but I'm a little confused about the vocal track. Is this a monitor channel of live vocals, or a separation of backing vocals that are pre-recorded? If the latter, I can especially see how those would be essential to separate and to do whatever it takes to get the gear that supports more than two channels for backing tracks. If the former, then who all gets the vocal monitoring? Does the drummer get it in their other ear?
Well, to clarify for further reference, it's pre-recorded vocals, bussed to
one output. Why, you may ask? Well, because one band is a Heart tribute, and one is a Pat Benatar tribute, and none of the rest of us guys in the bands can sing those backup vocals.

So, here's how I'm all set up (James, I know this is information overkill for your set-up, but if you go to a laptop/audio interface in the future, it might be helpful) :

1. Mixer (Alesis 12R) has 1 set of main outs, and two aux sends. Aux 1 is pre,
Aux 2 is post.
2. Aux 1 from mixer feeds headphone send to drummer.
3. Aux 2 from mixer is connected to my onstage powered monitor.
4. Main outs 1 and 2 of the mixer are connected to a stereo D.I. that feeds
the house.
5. Ultralite main outs 1 and 2 feed channel 1 and 2 inputs on the mixer. The
DP pre-recorded music tracks are assigned to these outputs. Turning up the aux 1 send for these channels increases level of DP music tracks going to the drummer. Turning up Aux send 2 for these channels increases the level of the music tracks that I hear in my monitor. The channel faders control level sent to the house.
6. Vocals are routed to analog 1 output of the Ultralite. That output feeds a mono D.I., the XLR out of that D.I. goes to house, the thru of that D.I. goes back into a channel on my submixer. Turning up the aux 1 send for that
channel sends vocals to the drummer. Turning up aux 2 send for that channel
sends vocals to my monitor. The fader for this channel feeds the level coming out of the mixer main outs, but since the vocal output first goes to a D.I., I leave the channel fader down all the way.
7. Click from DP is routed to analog 2 output on the Ultralite. That output
goes into a fourth channel on my mixer. Turning up aux send 1 for that channel increases level of the click to the drummer. Since the click doesn't go to the house (or my own monitor), I leave its fader all the way down, and just turn up aux 1 send for it so only the drummer hears it.
8. My "live" keyboards are plugged into four channels on the mixer and I can then adjust their levels independently - aux 1 send controls how much of
my live keyboards the drummer hears, aux 2 controls how much of them I hear
in my monitor, and the faders for those channels control how much goes to the house.

The key to the whole setup is in having the two aux sends. At least one of them has to be pre-fader, and one can be post-fader. Essentially, I have
control of three separate mixes - aux 1 is the mix for the drummer, aux 2 is
my onstage mix, and the channel faders and master fader control the mix to
the house.

On the "pro" tours, all outputs of the Ultralites are connected via a snake
to inputs on the monitor board, and then those channels can all be routed to
the house and to individual monitor mixes for each band member, so each guy can have his own mix of whatever he wants.
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by screws »

James,

I've been running iPod backing tracks for several years now. Your idea of 4 tracks - click/synths/SFX/BGVs sounds great. I might personally premix the synths and SFX to one track and put the BGVs on separate tracks (low and high, for instance) for better live mixing options.

Of course, being a control freak, I'd want 8 outs to give even more options, but I'm the mixer in the live gigs I'm involved in. Frankly, most house mixers are less than stellar, in my limited experience, so premixing as much as possible is probably the best idea.

You could consider what one of my sons did with his band - 8 outputs to your own mixer on stage sending a pre-mixed version of 2, 3 or 4 sends to the house.

Best wishes to your endeavor! And don't feel weird to work with prerecorded vocals - after all, they're coming to hear you and they'll still be hearing you!
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by New Tricks »

I entered the world of backing tracks a couple years ago. What you need is a Roland SPD-SX, someone who can write/record the parts and a capable drummer to trigger them.

I've learned a lot over the past couple years and have come up with all kinds of solutions to avoiding train wrecks. Email me if you'd like in case I forget to come back here :)

The biggest obstacle is teaching players to follow the track. It becomes the new leader of the band.
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by James Steele »

Well just as an update, I've given up on having the iPad actually act as the source of the audio and MIDI. Ran into issues with reliability and also plain ol' processing horsepower I think. It just never gave me confidence. I had a camera connection kit and a Presonus AudioBox 44VSL and it was not 100% reliable.

I then dug out an old G4 iBook I had and tried to use it and didn't fare well either but chalked that up to the iBook not being able to run anything newer the Leopard.

I bought a mid 2010 MacBook 7,1 unibody and THAT combo is now working like a champ. It's driving the audio tracks just fine with the Presonus interface and MIDI (which I'm using to send patch changes to my guitar rig) is rock solid now. My drummer is using DP Control running on an iPad 2 (iOS 6.1) to essentially remote control the MacBook with a direct ad-hoc wireless connection—no need for a router. Using one project containing the songs in a set as separate chunks, he can quickly switch songs with minimal delay and no load time for audio, etc. The PreSonus interface is positioned near him and he has earbuds plugged into its headphone jack and he can control the click volume himself and adjust as needed. So far it's working well. :)
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by David Polich »

James Steele wrote:Well just as an update, I've given up on having the iPad actually act as the source of the audio and MIDI. Ran into issues with reliability and also plain ol' processing horsepower I think. It just never gave me confidence. I had a camera connection kit and a Presonus AudioBox 44VSL and it was not 100% reliable.

I then dug out an old G4 iBook I had and tried to use it and didn't fare well either but chalked that up to the iBook not being able to run anything newer the Leopard.

I bought a mid 2010 MacBook 7,1 unibody and THAT combo is now working like a champ. It's driving the audio tracks just fine with the Presonus interface and MIDI (which I'm using to send patch changes to my guitar rig) is rock solid now. My drummer is using DP Control running on an iPad 2 (iOS 6.1) to essentially remote control the MacBook with a direct ad-hoc wireless connection—no need for a router. Using one project containing the songs in a set as separate chunks, he can quickly switch songs with minimal delay and no load time for audio, etc. The PreSonus interface is positioned near him and he has earbuds plugged into its headphone jack and he can control the click volume himself and adjust as needed. So far it's working well. :)
Very cool! I had a feeling you'd go the laptop route. And this confirms for me that the iPad is
still not really a serious DAW machine, although it is fine as a control surface.

Good to see that it's working for you. Welcome to the "playback" club.
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Re: Sequencers/Backing Tracks Live - Advice Please?

Post by James Steele »

David Polich wrote:Very cool! I had a feeling you'd go the laptop route. And this confirms for me that the iPad is
still not really a serious DAW machine, although it is fine as a control surface.

Good to see that it's working for you. Welcome to the "playback" club.
Well, admittedly I have an iPad2 and I'm sure the processor is more robust in the iPad3. I think perhaps it could still "work" but it was shaky for me and it may have been a number of factors. I was using Meteor, which I found to be very capable, but I had problems with the MIDI being 100% reliable when connected to the Presonus AudioBox 44VSL with the camera connection kit. On top of it, you have to buy more stuff to solve the problem of running the iPad2 off AC power while connecting the camera connection kit as well.

So, I dropped $440 on Craiglist for a MacBook 7,1, put 8GB RAM in it and am a happy camper. My drummer just uses the iPad 2 to run DP Control to control the DP project and it's fast.

Other advantages:

• Don't have to painstakingly export tracks as audio files and then mess with importing them into the iPad with FTP to get into the iPad sequencer's proprietary format. I can make tweaks on my studio machine, copy to projects folder on MacBook over my network, check the bundles, and then I'm good.

• The iPad sequencer, Meteor, (like many actual Mac DAWs) has no equivalent of "Chunks." When playback ended on Meteor on the iPad, loading up the next sequence was a bit more cumbersome and took a bit more time.

• In theory, I can set up my MIDI Raider MIDI controller for my guitar rig to change chunks and start playback with footswitches. That's the theory anyway. I'm going to experiment with this when I have time.
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