MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW...

The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other off topic discussion.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other matters outside deemed outside the scope of helping users make optimal use of MOTU hardware and software. Posts in other forums may be moved here at the moderators discretion. No politics or religion!!
User avatar
amplidood
Posts: 1565
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by amplidood »

There's a 30 day free trial of Studio One you can download.

I'm very curious to see if 64-bit DP addresses these issues. It's got to be incredibly difficult to have a base of code that stretches back so far. Trying to keep up with software that's built from the ground up for newer technologies seems to be a task that's not for the faint of heart. If it's purely a 64-bit issue, then DP can stay in the running. Only one way to find out.

Not having to give up something I've invested so much life in would be glorious.
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Shooshie »

James Steele wrote:
kgdrum wrote:Also VST3 supports multiple MIDI ports as opposed to VST2 and AU which support only one MIDI port at a time.
Do you mean like how MAS could accept multiple MIDI ports incoming. Four banks of 16 channels?
I wish that MAS could have been the standard instead of AU. I don't think we ever got to see what MAS could really do. People forget that MOTU was one of the companies that practically invented Native Audio, and that their MAS engine was extremely accurate and efficient. Then with OSX it became a legacy that had to be incorporated as an added layer in the Core Audio concept. It went from being efficient to being an albatross around MOTU's neck. But they've somehow managed to make it work extremely well.

But now it's time to see what DP can do. This is the big chance -- with Windows on board -- to appeal to a lot of people. Or not. I'm rooting for MOTU. There's no other app that I love like DP. It's not in my hands, though; what happens next depends on what MOTU decides to do.

Frankly, the fact that DP8 is taking a long time to hit the market gives me some hope that they are aware of their unique position at this time, and that they are trying to get it right. That's what I'm hoping, anyway. They've GOT to know that freezing VI tracks is a kludge, and that the competition is now basically able to write orchestral scores in real time. You can with DP, too, if you use Plogue Bidule, VEP, and/or slave units. But it doesn't need to be that complicated anymore for the user. Let the complexity be handled by the Mac and software. Make it transparent to the user. We want to be able to write on screen as if the orchestra is just sitting there waiting for our every note. Changes? No problem. Just change the notes. No unfreezing.

If Studio One can do it, DP should be able to do it, as well.

Go, MOTU!

Shoosh
Last edited by Shooshie on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Shooshie »

amplidood wrote: Not having to give up something I've invested so much life in would be glorious.
It's not even a question for me. I'll be using DP, regardless. I'm not under the tyranny of deadlines anymore, and most of my projects are simply to do at my leisure. My recording projects are different, but those don't involve VI's. MOTU's software has served me well for 28 years, and I can't complain. But the next generation is going to choose what works the best for them, and if it involves freezing and unfreezing tracks, it ain't gonna be DP. Not with such speedy competition out there.

Let's hope 64 bit and some effort at streamlining DP will make this a hit. There's one thing for sure: DP8 will be completely rewritten for the Cocoa environment. If they chose to get it right, rather than pile bandaids on legacy code, then we should be in for a treat. Only the release of DP8 will tell.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
Gravity Jim
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:55 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Gravity Jim »

I can't say I "love" DP. I know it, extremely well.... the slickness and the kludgy stuff equally well. I've trained myself to work in DP, and so everything else looks and feels foreign.

I also have a pair of canvas deck shoes I wear around the studio. They are broken in and wearing them feels like going barefoot. But they are grey instead of white, and you can't wear them in the rain because they leak.

I am doing larger and more VI intensive projects agains tight deadlines all the time, and I am really hoping the DP becomes the DAW it can be. As for the archives... well, I can keep a copy of DP 7.24 on a drive for opening up the old files and gradually migrate if need be. Like all of you, I am not interested in abandoning my long investment in Digital Performer.
Jim Bordner

MacPro 5,1 (3.33Ghz 12-core), 32g RAM, OS X 10.14.6 • MOTU DP 10.11 • Logic Pro X 10.2.5 • Waves Platinum, UAD-2, Slate Digital, Komplete, Omnisphere 2, LASS, CineSamples, Chipsounds, V Collection 5[color]
User avatar
FutureLegends
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW...

Post by FutureLegends »

I tried bidule and it didn't help the processor spikes one bit. Someone said its because rewire can only use one core. All I know was that I saw no benefit in regards to CPU use. That leaves VEP at €230 if DP8 don't deliver. Or a new computer. Or a new DAW.
I have only used Logic and Cubase (long time ago). And I really can't stand Logic.
Hackintosh 6-Core 3.7ghz/32gb ram, macOS Mojave
Hardware: Apollo 8, Apollo 8p, Apollo Twin mkII, MOTU 828mk3 & Original 828 | UA LA-610 | Vanguard V13 Tube Mic | MindPrint En-Voice | Genelec M040AM | Gretsch Guitars & Drums
Software: DP8 | FCPX | Logic Pro X | Play
| EWQL Gypsy, Choirs, Orchestra Gold, VoP | EZDrummer w/ Twizted Kit | Action Strings
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW...

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

That's not my experience. As usual YMMV.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
Kubi
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:51 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Kubi »

FutureLegends wrote:I tried bidule and it didn't help the processor spikes one bit. Someone said its because rewire can only use one core. All I know was that I saw no benefit in regards to CPU use. That leaves VEP at €230 if DP8 don't deliver. Or a new computer. Or a new DAW.
I have only used Logic and Cubase (long time ago). And I really can't stand Logic.
Just saw your rig and I have a very similar setup - and not many problems at all with spikes. (On rare occasions I do get audio dropouts on playback when I run a lot of Slate VCC instances. Hate them, but they don't print. And it doesn't happen very often...) Generally I do a lot of printing to audio and don't keep things virtual for very long - I just like to work that way. But I have run large VI and sampler setups very successfully using VE Pro.

Have you tried VE Pro5? It seems that it definitely runs on all cores that are available (though I have not verified this.) Also you may want to get more RAM - I'm running 20GB. If and when you don't run VE Pro or Bidule, be sure to activate Kontakt 5's Memeory server, it makes things a LOT smoother by putting all of Kontakts RAM outside of DP.

Lastly, how full is your main hard drive? I find that having a minimum of 30-40% free makes things a LOT smoother. And I hear miracles happen with SSDs, but have no first hand experience.
Kubi
---------------------------------------------------
Kubilay Uner
http://kubilayuner.com
MacPro 2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 20GB RAM; OS 10.9.5; DP9.01; MOTU 2408mk3 & MIDI Express 128 w/latest drivers
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by mhschmieder »

Given the recent demise of BIAS, this whole conversation has me terrified.

If I actually LIKED other DAW's and didn't come close to a nervous breakdown when I try to use them (ProTools excepted, but I still don't consider it Ready for Prime Time when it comes to MIDI-based work), I wouldn't be so worried. But DP is literally the ONLY DAW that I find intuitive and flexible enough for my various workflows (since I work in every genre). It's why I bought a Mac -- an unknown entity to me at the time -- in the first place.

At least we can rest assured that MOTU is probably in better shape than Sonar/Cakewalk (even with Roland's investment), as they make good hardware and other good software and support both platforms with much of what they already offer. So they aren't quite the island that BIAS was or that Cakewalk still is.

I don't quite understand how orchestral writing in real-time is thought to be a big enough market to drive people's DAW choices, though. And I've been able to do OK with deferring freezing at the early stages of composition, but I don't apply effects until I am ready to freeze MIDI anyway (though I never actually freeze tracks; I render them instead).

Once I switch to VE PRO as my main hosting engine, I will see whether I am comfortable committing all my processing to a single stereo track rendering of the orchestra vs. working with stems inside DP.

I guess what people are saying is that other DAW's allow you to continue working with stems without having to resort to pre-rendering. But even in VE PRO you can emulate stems as it has a flexible buss and aux topology.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Shooshie »

I have less problems than most, because I use Wallander for all my winds. Possibly excepting flute. You can load up 100 Wallander instruments, and the Mac hardly coughs. I hope he does as good a job with strings. Come to think of it, I haven't checked lately. He may have those ready! (nope… and if the strings on his iPad app are any indication of how they are coming along, I'd say it's going to be a while before he has them ready for prime time, if ever)

Shoosh
Last edited by Shooshie on Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21075
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by James Steele »

You know, I was scanning the posts in this thread and for those who really love DP (like me) and for whom optimum VI efficiency is a paramount consideration (not like me), there might be another option, albeit unsavory to some but not unthinkable.

I'm not a programmer, but you'd have to wonder if given that the Windows version might be quite a bit of "fresh" code... at least so far as running on Windows... what if the Windows version of DP8 is more efficient with VIs than the Mac version? Many of our plugs come in VST versions and Windows machines are cheap and can be powerful and the user interface is supposed to be identical with maybe slight differences in fonts.

Hey... I love Macs, but the primary reason I have one is that DP was not available any way else. Perhaps a Windows DP right might be an option for some?

Come to think of it, even those of us who would never give up our Macs for our main studio computers (I'm leaning that way myself... love the Mac OS) may have an inexpensive Windows laptop at our disposal that could be pressed into service as our portable traveling writing setup. I have one of those built around a long-in-tooth G4 iBook and rather than have an expensive Mac laptop, I could get myself a Windows laptop for cheaper and make that my on-the-road portastudio. Projects would be interchangeable enough, because when I'm futzing around in hotel rooms it's usually just ugly sounding song ideas and stuff with tracks I will re-record when I get home, so wouldn't have to worry about the Mac version of DP not opening third party plug-ins opening exactly the same settings, etc.

Come to think of it, remember you heard it here first. DP8 for Windows may still be very useful for those of us who want to take DP8 on the road with a less expensive Windows laptop so we can focus our budget on the best Mac Pro for the studio.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
Gravity Jim
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:55 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Gravity Jim »

I'll change DAWs before I run Windows. There would be absolutely no excuse for the Windows version of DP to run better than the Mac version. None.
Jim Bordner

MacPro 5,1 (3.33Ghz 12-core), 32g RAM, OS X 10.14.6 • MOTU DP 10.11 • Logic Pro X 10.2.5 • Waves Platinum, UAD-2, Slate Digital, Komplete, Omnisphere 2, LASS, CineSamples, Chipsounds, V Collection 5[color]
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21075
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by James Steele »

Gravity Jim wrote:I'll change DAWs before I run Windows. There would be absolutely no excuse for the Windows version of DP to run better than the Mac version. None.
I'm not sure what you mean? Would you be angry if it ran better?

What I'm suggesting is that since the Windows version is a totally new compile to run on a different OS, maybe it's a possibility.

Look... I'm as pro Apple/Mac as anyone owning no less then 2 iPhones, 2 iPads, 2 iPods, 2 iBooks, a G5 and a Mac Pro. Cupertino's gotten their cash from me over the years. I was just floating that, in case it might be true.

Regardless, if projects are reasonably interchangeable, I'll go on record as saying being able to use a Windows laptop ONLY for my traveling, songwriting setup seems like a nifty idea. :dance:
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
Matcher
Posts: 903
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Finland

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Matcher »

amplidood wrote:I've always relied on DP for my programming needs because I love all the real time MIDI processing and how musical it is. But that foundation is being shaken for me after trying a rival software that easily handles 4-5x the amount of virtual instruments without even breaking a sweat. Whatever it is in DP's code that needs to be overhauled, I hope they find the time to do it. I was shocked as I continued to stack VI after VI on my (by modern standards) ancient MacBook Pro, and it continued to run... and run WELL.

A friend who is getting into the pop scene in LA was working in a certain well known production house. He noticed that everyone in that camp was using this software now for exactly that reason. Entire songs of VI's, live, and overdubs running simultaneously.

I don't want to use anything other than DP, but I can't work in the mode of having to print every single VI part before I can move to the next. It's making me sad, yet excited that someone has created a piece of software that actually allows my beloved laptop to do more than it ever has. Perhaps it will drive MOTU to really crack the case.
That's a bit like making a decision of being an artist or a professional..an artist will choose to work with the tools that inspire him, and a professional will choose whatever tool is available to execute a task. I'm not saying the two ways of working exclude each other, they might even compliment each other.
MBP i7, OSX 10.7.4
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21075
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by James Steele »

Matcher wrote:That's a bit like making a decision of being an artist or a professional..an artist will choose to work with the tools that inspire him, and a professional will choose whatever tool is available to execute a task. I'm not saying the two ways of working exclude each other, they might even compliment each other.
That's true. Pragmatism rules when deadlines loom.

Which is why I'll take the opportunity to re-iterate a point. Why can't we start really badgering the DAW developers to come together (ala the MIDI standard back in the 80s) and once and for all, come up with a foolproof, reliable exchange format for projects so you could export and open tracks between DAWs seamlessly. It must be possible somehow? Maybe third party plugs or plug presets might be an issue.

I will admit I have little experience with AAF (?) and OMF, but from what I read it's a dodgy process moving a project from one DAW to another sometimes. If this became transparent we could move from one DAW to another whenever we felt like it to utilize it's strengths. It could be a "tide that lifts all boats" and boost DAW sales as well as more people would own multiple DAWs once it became easy to go back and forth on the same project. One could use the "inspiring" DAW for some of the time, the "utilitarian" DAW the other.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
Kubi
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:51 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: MOTU has to get VI handling (and CPU usage) on point NOW

Post by Kubi »

I think this discussion may be a bit premature, with DP8 as a 64bit app coming soon? Studio One runs 64bit, as does Logic. I wouldn't be surprised if that, more than anything else, is the reason why some folks experience superior performance (64bit is not only about memory addressing, AFAIK. It is my understanding it also affects performance in general.) Accordingly, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if running DP as a 64bit app would indeed take care of all (or at least most) concerns listed here - which Amplidood already pointed out above as a possibility. Time to 'wait and see', I'd say.

:D
Kubi
---------------------------------------------------
Kubilay Uner
http://kubilayuner.com
MacPro 2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 20GB RAM; OS 10.9.5; DP9.01; MOTU 2408mk3 & MIDI Express 128 w/latest drivers
Post Reply