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Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:20 am
by Michael Canavan
James Steele wrote:So MIDI "objects" basically? It would be nice. I don't have too much trouble marqueeing measures in the TO and moving them around, but I agree objects would be nice to have.

The thing that would be so killer about this is because DP treats MIDI as one long file in the graphic editor and Sequence windows, you would instantly have the best of both worlds. If MOTU only did object oriented editing in the Track Overview (which is sort of the point of TO anyway), then the whole ball game would change IMO.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:47 am
by FMiguelez
Michael Canavan wrote:In Logic or Cubase MIDI in the arrangement page (DP uses the Track Overview and the Sequence window for the arrange page functions), MIDI is treated as chunks of data that can be colored differently, and that are selectable as a chunk. So say you have a basic pop arrangement, well you can select all the first break without using markers, by simply clicking on the MIDI part, since its separate than the chorus it's not a matter of selecting between markers or zooming in to the bar etc.
In Logic or Live for instance it's possible to click drag select the whole chorus and option drag it to another part of the song lighting fast, in DP you must use and select with markers to get even close to the same effect, though of course Logic allows to work this way as well. It's another method that's universally used by almost every DAW out there, that DP doesn't do.
It would be cool to see it as an option, that way people that are opposed to it in some way can turn off that feature.
.

I see what you mean. And I will have to agree with you here.
Before I bought DP, I used what was known at the time as CakeWalk (instead of Sonar). MIDI was manipulated this way.
What I liked A LOT was that you could make each MIDI clip any color you wanted, and even CALL it anything you wanted. Orchestrating this way was very nice, since you could set all the Foreground material in one color, the Middle ground in another, and the background in another. This gave me a great "bird's view" of the orchestral balance.

I would love to have this in a future DP release.

Please tell me another thing:
when you say you can move the Intro, for instance, and you have LOTS of CC automation all over the place, in many tracks, can you just move the whole block without worrying about selecting all the CC first? As in copying the whole intro (or any other section) with all the tracks, and pasting them elsewhere. Will this pasted material RESPECT whatever automation was BEFORE the pasting place, during AND after the paste location?
And are those apps smart enough to "respect" whatever CC value happens WITHIN the MIDI block data without you having to baby sit it?

That would be an AWESOME addition for DP too. I know we can do this too. Shooshie has a great tutorial for this on the tips sheet, but being able to avoid those steps would be even faster (as in we wouldn't even have to worry about doing that because we know DP would take care of it automatically). I see no reason for MOTU not to implement this.

Ok. I've moaned a little in the Moaning Topic :)

So who is going to start the DP8 wish list? Come on guys! We are almost already late :mrgreen:

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:58 am
by Michael Canavan
FMiguelez wrote:Please tell me another thing:
when you say you can move the Intro, for instance, and you have LOTS of CC automation all over the place, in many tracks, can you just move the whole block without worrying about selecting all the CC first? As in copying the whole intro (or any other section) with all the tracks, and pasting them elsewhere. Will this pasted material RESPECT whatever automation was BEFORE the pasting place, during AND after the paste location?
And are those apps smart enough to "respect" whatever CC value happens WITHIN the MIDI block data without you having to baby sit it?

Logic at least, treats MIDI CC data in the object(chunk of MIDI data), so CC is moved when the object moves, and cc/MIDI data not moved is not affected. Track automation is track based, CC automation is object based.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:57 am
by Jim
DP6 immediately made me more attractive to women. I hope they tone it down for DP7, or my three girlfriends will get jealous.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:45 pm
by Shooshie
Michael Canavan wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:Please tell me another thing:
when you say you can move the Intro, for instance, and you have LOTS of CC automation all over the place, in many tracks, can you just move the whole block without worrying about selecting all the CC first? As in copying the whole intro (or any other section) with all the tracks, and pasting them elsewhere. Will this pasted material RESPECT whatever automation was BEFORE the pasting place, during AND after the paste location?
And are those apps smart enough to "respect" whatever CC value happens WITHIN the MIDI block data without you having to baby sit it?

Logic at least, treats MIDI CC data in the object(chunk of MIDI data), so CC is moved when the object moves, and cc/MIDI data not moved is not affected. Track automation is track based, CC automation is object based.


Logic's region-based MIDI is one of my major beefs against the app. I don't like working that way. Feels like a kid's app, and it's hard to override it.

I developed a series of key commands that would essentially select everything in the region of any selected audio, thus making it easy to cut/paste or drag the whole "object" without having to select the data separately, which is what FM is alluding to above. Takes less than half-a-second to do it, yet still gives me the freedom to work freehand without worrying about Logic-style MIDI regions.

I've been told by a few that my method is complicated and that nobody else would ever adopt it. Of course, other people have told me that it works great for them. I guess that if someone doesn't see how easy it makes things, they probably don't have much need for it anyway. Anyway, it's in the Tips Sheet, page 2.

Another strength of DP is the Tracks Overview Window. Its regions seem chosen arbitrarily, but it's based on distance between events -- silence. You can set the sensitivity, though I find little use for it. They're easily overridden. You can select right down to the individual note in the Tracks Overview Window. Then, dragging to another track is an automatic merge. There is so much you can do in that window, but it's wasted on a lot of people, probably because they didn't "grow up with it" as some of us did. I had already developed methods for the T.O. window before they gave us "regions" in it, and quickly looked for keyboard commands that override the regions so I can continue to use the window as I always did, except that now I can see exactly what I want to select, whereas in the early years I had to figure out mathematically where it would be and expand the T.O. window's zoom until I had the resolution to select exactly what I wanted.

Anyway, the Tracks Overview methods are in the Tips Sheet (first page of the thread) under "Secrets of the Tracks Overview Window." Starts with selecting the selection mode: all, regions or events, or range only. From there the Command, Shift, Option, and Control keys all alter the function of the mouse. Regions are nice on those occasions when you need to move a block, and the region is exactly what you want to move. At other times, they are just in the way.

Shooshie

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:47 pm
by sdfalk
How music/information gets displayed in a sequencer doesn't make it feel more or less like a toy to me.
I'd like the option to have it both ways if possible

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:09 pm
by James Steele
sdfalk wrote:How music/information gets displayed in a sequencer doesn't make it feel more or less like a toy to me.
I'd like the option to have it both ways if possible


Yeah... me too... I would like the flexibility of having MIDI objects. To illustrate this, here are two QuickTime screen captures of what happens when when you repeatedly drag and drop a pattern from Addictive Drums...

... to the Track Overview in DIgital Performer:

http://www.motunation.com/movies/dpdrag-drop.mov

... and to the Arrange window in Logic Express:

http://www.motunation.com/movies/logicdrag-drop.mov

Look at them both and tell me which method might be more useful if you're fleshing out a pop song or something of that nature? Notice that in Logic when you complete the drag you get a 4 bar object and it even retains the name of the groove at the top of it, whereas in the first movie, when the groove is dragged into the TO in DP, it loses not just information about its origin, but with the next successive drag, it merges into the previous 4 bars.

I would much rather work in DP and so I do, but yes... I feel MIDI objects should be an option much like subsequences that were in Studio Vision. EVEN IF IT IS LIMITED TO A SINGLE MIDI TRACK, it would be great if we could marquee a certain number of measures (2, 4, 8, etc.) and then choose a command and turn them into a object or "block" that we could then freely move about and option-drag, etc.

At least I'd like that some day.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:05 am
by Michael Canavan
James Steele wrote:
sdfalk wrote:How music/information gets displayed in a sequencer doesn't make it feel more or less like a toy to me.
I'd like the option to have it both ways if possible


Yeah... me too... I would like the flexibility of having MIDI objects. To illustrate this, here are two QuickTime screen captures of what happens when when you repeatedly drag and drop a pattern from Addictive Drums...

... to the Track Overview in DIgital Performer:

http://www.motunation.com/movies/dpdrag-drop.mov

... and to the Arrange window in Logic Express:

http://www.motunation.com/movies/logicdrag-drop.mov

Look at them both and tell me which method might be more useful if you're fleshing out a pop song or something of that nature? Notice that in Logic when you complete the drag you get a 4 bar object and it even retains the name of the groove at the top of it, whereas in the first movie, when the groove is dragged into the TO in DP, it loses not just information about its origin, but with the next successive drag, it merges into the previous 4 bars.

I would much rather work in DP and so I do, but yes... I feel MIDI objects should be an option much like subsequences that were in Studio Vision. EVEN IF IT IS LIMITED TO A SINGLE MIDI TRACK, it would be great if we could marquee a certain number of measures (2, 4, 8, etc.) and then choose a command and turn them into a object or "block" that we could then freely move about and option-drag, etc.

At least I'd like that some day.


I agree with this 100% People forget that in Logic you can simply select all the data and merge it if you need to see all data in a DP style. The big advantage DP could have is that the TO window could be switchable so that people like Shoosie don't have to change a workflow, but people like me who would like a choice about where to split region MIDI sections, ie a scissor and glue tool instead of bars/beats, could work that way.
It's certainly no deal killer, when working on a pop style song it's really easy enough to arrange it in the Song window, using Sequences for verse, chorus, breaks etc. or to even just drag these sequences into another sequence in the order you want, but incremental changes in the data can be tedious if you get to the end and want to cut out a section and replace it with a longer section etc.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:12 am
by Michael Canavan
Also, glad for this thread. 8) I don't want to run around complaining about this in other threads. It's a detail that I would love to see, but not the end of the world. I'm actually more upset at Live for not allowing the MIDI editor to be on a second screen than this concern.

I'm pretty excited to get back into DP with 7, and looking forward to the Song window allowing a live set with 12-24 tracks of audio per Chunk/tune, with 10-14 in a Set, without screen crazyness!
VI-Racks plus Kore will allow me to build some crazy mess of a performance set in DP! 8)

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:21 pm
by Shooshie
Well, you've just shown me at least one good reason to have MIDI objects: they can retain their name and origin info. It's still very easy to select it in DP's Tracks Overview and move it as an object. CONTROL-CLICK selects those as one-bar objects. Drag for each successive bar. Add the COMMAND KEY to override bar constraints (toggles the grid). Change resolution if the bar isn't matching the length of the object. (or set the time signature in the Conductor Track)

Where MIDI Objects would really shine is if you wanted to drag those objects to a position that has nothing to do with barlines. Once you cross barlines within the object, you can no longer select the entire object as a whole. You're still stuck with barline-selections unless you want to drag. Again, CONTROL-COMMAND-Drag overrides barline constraints.

I can see why you'd want it, and I agree; it would be a good feature. As long as it's simple to override!

Now that we've gotten over most of the big hump of rewriting the code in DP, maybe they can focus on bringing you some of the things you want. MIDI objects would be good, if they allow it as a preference.

Shoosh

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:31 pm
by FMiguelez
Shooshie wrote:
I can see why you'd want it, and I agree; it would be a good feature. As long as it's simple to override!


Exactly. In some instances I would LOVE the object behavior, and in some others normal DP behavior. Just having the option to have it either way would be wonderful.

The problem is, I suspect it would be VERY difficult to achieve (from a programming POV). Having 2 different behaviors for the same thing in the same program... I don't know. But surely, MOTU's guys could figure it out 8)

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:28 pm
by BobK
From what little I know about Pro Tools, I think it has what you're talking about; they call it MIDI Regions and Region Groups.

Region Groups seem to be similar to grouping (and ungrouping) objects in Adobe Illustrator. You can nest MIDI regions into larger 'macro' groups, and give them names. They can be in single tracks, or across multiple tracks. I'm surprised MOTU didn't add something like this to DP long ago.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:55 pm
by kassonica
The only thing I can think of is a tab to transient function.

This would be very very useful.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:02 pm
by FMiguelez
kassonica wrote:The only thing I can think of is a tab to transient function.

This would be very very useful.


+1000
I don't think it would be too troublesome to implement :?

Also, it would be nice if DP could automatically find the nearest Zero cross point between two SBs. That wouldn't be too hard to implement either.

Re: The OFFICIAL DP7 Bitching and Moaning Topic

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:41 am
by zed
FMiguelez wrote:
kassonica wrote:The only thing I can think of is a tab to transient function.

This would be very very useful.


+1000
I don't think it would be too troublesome to implement :?

And another +1000 to that. That's just about the only thing I can remember missing from the time I spent in ProTools.

FMiguelez wrote:Also, it would be nice if DP could automatically find the nearest Zero cross point between two SBs. That wouldn't be too hard to implement either.

Oh yeah! That would come in very handy indeed. :-)