Why should I use Digital Performer?

[Miles]

I've outgrown Garageband and I'm ready to move up in the world. Logic seems like the logical progression (excuse the pun), but I have been recommended by a few pro's to use Digital Performer. Why is it so good?
I had a lot of trouble setting up my new motu interface and only got it sorted thanks to an expert tech who posts on this forum. Many things seem illogical with the 828mk3 and I'm wondering if there is just as much confusion for a new user with Digital Performer?

Please be honest here folks, I need the cons as well as the pros.

[jerkrecords]

even though i'm hating motu and DP at the moment...

when the system is up and working right it is just fantastic.
let's me make music and focus on keeping clients creative and flowing.
the older version we've been using at this studio is the best. any tool that is not in the way of workflow and letting people get their ideas captured is alright in my book. DP has been that way for years for us.

as for motu h/w....
i've been using an older 2408mkii for years.
these things are the best value going i think. i no longer use it's analog ins/outs, but rather higher end converters talking to it via ADAT lightpipe. plenty of i/o, very flexible. never a problem.

now if 7 could get straightened out....


-pete

[Dwetmaster]

Cons
If you're coming from GarageBand, Logic IS probably the most logical choice for you. I understands GB is a young brother from logic
From what I've heard Logic is made for Apple by Apple and it is very stable and optimized.
But I don't use it so I can't say much about it.



For
Very fast workflow
Extensive editing tools for both MIDI AND Audio
Chunks allows you to have several project within one.
Powerful search engine allows you to look for and edit ONLY the data you need
Command window allows you to map almost any action you want to any key binding you want. I don't even know what are the stock bindings anymore but I still barely use the mouse when I work.
Seamless integration with any MOTU interfaces.
You have this great forum for whatever support you might want/need



These are the first things that comes to mind. From there, you can do a quick search here on all the threads about Logic vs DP and you should get the info you need there.

[kwiz]

Hey Mike,

Welcome! I've been using DP since v2.7 and I also use PT8, Logic9, and occasionally Live6.
From a workflow standpoint, DP is just a lot more fluid imo. I have to use PT and Logic because of the nature of my work, and the need to be fluent in those DAWS for client compatibility. But 95% of the time, I start and end my projects in DP. There are so many reasons why I believe DP is superior and more innovative than the other DAWS out there, and there are some shortcomings that DP has that other systems excel at. For instance, DP's VI's fall way short in functionality compared to Logic's. Logic's VI's are musically inspiring and are completely usable for just about any style of music you might do.

That said, DP overall, is superior! Again, this is my opinion. I've been blessed and fortunate enough to be able to use/own any system out there including PTHD, and when you compare the cost of PTHD to the cost of DP using there I/O's augmented with better I/O converters, DP wins hands down.

Hope this helps and good luck!

[Movies]

Hi Miles,

I'm relatively new to the entire process of recording and certainly not a technical wizard at pretty much anything. I've been using DP for the last couple of years -- I started with DP 5.13.

For someone like me (currently on v. 6.02), DP has worked out really well. MOTU provides great support and the manual and accompanying information that comes with the program are EXCEPTIONALLY detailed and easy to follow.

Among my circle of friends, I think most of the major DAWs are represented. Lately, I hear a lot of my ProTools pals saying things like, "That sounds cool -- ProTools doesn't let you do that." with regard to some of the things I can do in DP.

Logic does seem like a pretty great program and suited very well to GB users. I do hear people saying, though, that it's much buggier than it should be -- at least the new version. Granted, DP has it's problems as well; I'm not doing anything super fancy, but I've definitely run into a couple of snags -- mostly pre-6.02 update.

I just thought I'd give the perspective of someone who is super concerned with usability/intuitive commands.

[kassonica]

Hey Miles welcome to the best forum on the net.






Ps good to see you joined

[Killahurts]

Miles, it really depends a great deal on what kind of music you (mostly) plan to do with it. I'm a DP user forever, but I own and use Logic as well, albeit a lot less. The music I do is very seldom loop-based, otherwise I might use Logic more. I record the old fashion way, like a multitrack tape deck. I combine lots of MIDI tracks with lots of audio tracks. I use plugins but rarely mix in DP, as I have an external digital console. I like how easy DP is to set up with different audio and MIDI configurations, both inside and outside of the computer- with Logic you still have the Environment, which is not as intuitive, IMO. There are a lot of things to like about Logic. If you compose with loops, etc., and especially if you don't have the budget for a bunch of 3rd party VI's, Logic might be better because it comes with more/better out of the box than DP does... Having said that, I love the way I interface with DP, the workflow is much more like my brain thinks than Logic is, which allows me to concentrate more on the music, and less on the DAW.

Obviously, coming from GB, you would master the ins and outs of Logic much faster- but that's not necessarily the best reason to go with it.

[Phil O]

Miles,
You started off your first post at Motunation with a bad pun. I can't think of a better reason to go with DP. You'll fit right in here!

For some, DP has a steep learning curve but it's only because the program can do so much. When I first had to choose a DAW I spent some time playing with other people's and although ProTools was the standard, I went with DP - and it wasn't the cost that was the determining factor for me. I found DP to be more in tune with the way I like to work. I highly recommend the product.

Phil

[Babz]

Because Logic SUCKS!

Seriously, though... Why not tell us something about how you work, what your set up is like, etc. What is your budget? Are you recording a band or doing film scoring at a desk? Do you do mostly audio? Mostly MIDI? Do you use virtual instruments? Do you own any third party plugins or virtual instrument? Outboard gear? Do you use hardware MIDI devices? You say you've "outgrown"... What does that mean? What are you looking for that you can't do now? Where do you want to go in the future with your music projects? Do you work mostly in a linear way, like live performance with tape rolling, or do you work in little building blocks, with loops, etc.? And so on....

Logic will certainly give you more bang for the buck. On the other hand, if you invest in third party VIs, DP could offer you a superior workflow experience. A lot of it is a question of what task you find yourself doing over and over. One program might do it for you in fewer steps. That can make a big difference. And Logic does suck.... If only Apple had bought DP instead of Logic...

Babz

[Kubi]

DP pros in random order:

- multiple sequences per project
- multiple mixes
- very flexible, easy-to-use routing possibilities
- built in pitch correction and very flexible audio quantize/time correction (though competition is now catching up)
- much more flexible and intuitive user interface (i.e. make visible any mix of track, regardless of type, and put them wherever you want; or ability to use BOTH track overview and sequence editor)
- very stable. DP5.13 in Leopard crashed every other month for me, DP7 in Snow Leo looks to be similarly reliable so far. And yes, Logic does crash... contrary to popular lore about it being "stable because it's Apple."
- superior audio editing (compared to Logic)
- very highly developed MIDI editing tools (i.e. shaping tools for intuitive mass editing of controller data)
- unlimited track count, fully implemented ADC, full sync capabilities right out of the box (as opposed to PTLE)
- very highly developed options for using custom scales, grooves etc.
- wait-for-note mode (just to rub it in, Logic!)
- peerless film scoring tools
- peerless live performance tools (i.e. chunk chaining etc.)
- POLAR looping tool
- very useful, detailed print manual
- extremely helpful user community right here

Some former shortcomings have been addressed in DP6 and 7, i.e. the info strip for quick access to fader, pan etc. of the active track from every edit window, or the new comping tool.

DP cons:

- no object-oriented MIDI editing
- can't use external MIDI controller to drive non-MIDI host automation (at least I haven't been able to figure out how)
- somewhat lackluster selection of included VIs (however, the built-in audio plug-ins are definitely quite useful now, with MW EQ, MW Limiter, ProVerb, etc. I'd call those overall on par with what's in the box for Logic and PTLE...)

[jresende]

Because DP is more Logical than Logic.
Regards!
*** I use Performer/DP since 1986.

[Shooshie]

now if 7 could get straightened out....


-pete

Just for the record, Pete at jerkrecords is having a problem which he hasn't figured out yet. The vast majority of DP 7 installations went flawlessly and are acting like mature releases. This is the first release in memory (which goes back to 1985) of ANY MOTU product that had zero issues for me in the .0 release. It nearly always requires a .01 or .1 before things start getting steady, but DP 7.0 worked perfectly right out of the box.

The only thing I think you'll miss from Garageband, besides the pretty instrument pictures beside each track is object-oriented MIDI editing. Bear in mind that I came up from the days when sequencers were simply lists of numbers, and editing phrases meant turning that phrase into numbers in your head, then flying through the list and typing in those numbers; I may not be the best person to judge this. But MIDI regions have always hindered the way I work. (regions = objects) I work on loose data, and I expect it to be loose so that I can select what I want, when I want it, and move it or edit it as I want to. Regions force you to work on the entire grouping, or else find a way to ungroup them. That is troubling to me, though I can point you to many fine users of DP who would put MIDI Objects on top of their wish list. (As long as it's optional I have no problem with that)

So, what some may list as a con, I list as a pro, but I know I'm unusual in that way.

Logic is the most illogical app I've ever used. I've got it right here in my dock, and I open it from time to time to try out things, but I'm always so glad to close it! DP works the way I work, which seems very natural to me.

Let me say this: DO NOT be tricked into selecting your DAW for the bundled virtual instruments. If you're looking to move up, you will be wanting professional quality VI's, and the bundled instruments with any DAW are rarely on par with what you can get elsewhere. It may seem like there's not enough for you right now, but over a period of years (and we all end up using these things forever) you'll buy more VI's. That's a given. DP's usage of virtual instruments is the most logical I've seen. It works very much like using rack-mounted instruments, only more convenient. Truly simple to use.

But if you go for Logic because of the VI's, then you're stuck with your choice, and when you begin replacing VI's with pro-quality instruments, you may have done yourself a disservice by not trying DP's way of working.

DP has pitch control, time stretching, automatic adjusting of audio to new sequence tempos, take comping, soundbite volumes, automation, automation trim, lots of bundled plugins including a few that are industry leaders, some bundled synth VI's that are deeper than they look at first glance, and what many of us consider the BEST MIDI editing in the business.

There's much, much more, but that would take a book to describe. The well-indexed manual broke 1000 pages many versions ago.

Hope to see you around,


Shooshie

[Armageddon]

But if you go for Logic because of the VI's, then you're stuck with your choice, and when you begin replacing VI's with pro-quality instruments, you may have done yourself a disservice by not trying DP's way of working.

Shooshie, that's an interesting thing to note: while Logic may (or may not) have the best bundled VI selection, and Cubase may (or may not) have the best bundled audio plug selection of any of the leading DAWS, it's important to remember that they are being bundled with Logic and Cubase, and both of these programs feature sub-par audio and MIDI editing capabilities and will likely give you less-than-professional results. Think of it as sticking $8,000 worth of pretty lights and a kickass stereo on a Chevy Nova. You're still driving a Chevy Nova, no matter how great the stereo sounds.

Really, if you've ever used MIDI or DAW software, there's not a huge learning curve to DP. Everything's pretty straight-forward, and in my ten years of using the software, I've only ever cracked the Bible-sized owner's manual(s) a couple of times. If you enjoy the VIs and the way GarageBand works, you'll want to upgrade to Logic. However, if you're trying to obtain professional results and you want to work in a virtual environment that gives you the best composition tools on the market today, spend that same money on DP.

[michkhol]

Cons:
1. Logic will host more VI instances on the same machine without overload.
2. Logic can mute MIDI notes.
3. Logic has the most sophisticated (people here call it illogical) internal MIDI architecture with flexible routing and on-the-fly MIDI transformation.
4. Logic has better notation editor which even supports (limited) articulation switching.
4. Logic has more audio file conversions (like managing split-stereo files)
5. DP has only one DSP algorithm for time-stretching/pitch-shifting, Logic 9 has at least 5.
6. Logic's looping combined with MIDI regions is unparalleled to DP.
7. Logic's sampler is no worse than anything else on the market despite the ugly look.
8. Logic comes with much more audio/instrument content which is in fact very usable.

Pros:
1. DP has much better audio editing capabilities including slip and slide tools. Logic 9 now has the Flex tool, combined with the slicing algorithm you could be able to achieve similar results but I'm not sure because I don't have Logic 9.
2. DP has much better MIDI automation editing (Hyper Editor in Logic is the most obscure and outdated feature and it becomes even more fun if you try to work with several MIDI channels).
3. Takes in the take folder are regular audio tracks and all editing commands work. Not sure about Logic 9.
4. The stock MW Equalizer is so good...

Basically if you compose a lot and use many VIs, Logic is better. If you record a lot and do plenty of audio editing - DP is better.

[fai31188]

I'm a DP user since around 2.4 or so, and used logic studio 8. My warning to you is this: if you have outboard MIDI gear that you want to easily and freely control from within the application, forget Logic. It's a nightmare, and so poorly implemented it will utterly kill any musical inspiration you might have. You will have to wade into the depths of the dreaded "environment" and even then, it doesn't accomplish what DP does so easily and intuitively.

If you work with Loops and that's all you do, then Logic should be fine for you.

If you want multiple mixes of the same project to A/B your mixes, forget Logic, it can't do it.

I don't want to give you yet another list of pros or cons for DP, they've been well covered in the posts above. I'll just say that DP is the most intuitive, easy to use, yet deep application I've ever had the pleasure of using (and I've used a few, including Logic 8, Protools, Cakewalk,and Live to varying degrees).

aL