IRespectMusic.org

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IRespectMusic.org

Post by James Steele »

So lately I've been hearing about this and I saw an article in the ASCAP Daily Brief about it. One the website, irespectmusic.org, where you can sign a petition, they state the following:
DID YOU KNOW?

The United States is the only democratic country in the world where artists don’t get paid for radio airplay.

The short list of countries that share the United States’ position on this issue includes Iran, North Korea, China, Vietnam, and Rwanda.

As a result of not paying their artists for radio airplay here in the United States, other democratic countries aren’t paying American artists in their countries.
Now I know this is skirting "politics" because this is a bill. As forum owner, I should perhaps maybe consider being more lenient regarding politics that directly affects the music business. That might be different. We'll see.

The thing I do not understand, and forgive me for being so uninformed, but I had always thought that radio stations DO pay artists for airplay. Maybe not directly, but don't radio stations have to pay PROs like ASCAP and BMI, which then in turn pay the artists?

Okay... wait a minute. It just dawned on me. Maybe the key word is "artist." I must be thinking about "songwriters." :!: :!: :!: Songwriters do indeed get paid, don't they? So is the push to make it so musicians who cover someone else's song get paid for airplay?

This may be a more complex issue than it seems on its face.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by James Steele »

Okay... more thinking. If songwriters ARE getting paid (as opposed to artists/musicians) for airplay, why is ASCAP sharing this in a newsletter? Doesn't ASCAP represent publishers/songwriters exclusively, or are they lending a helping hand to musicians who don't write their own songs.

Again... I'm confused. Mike Halloran, can you help me understand this issue better before I just reflexively sign the petition on their site?
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by billf »

James Steele wrote:Okay... more thinking. If songwriters ARE getting paid (as opposed to artists/musicians) for airplay, why is ASCAP sharing this in a newsletter? Doesn't ASCAP represent publishers/songwriters exclusively, or are they lending a helping hand to musicians who don't write their own songs.

Again... I'm confused. Mike Halloran, can you help me understand this issue better before I just reflexively sign the petition on their site?
I hope Mike can chime in on this, I'm interested too.

I thought that the recordings themselves are owned by the labels, and the "recording artist" is paid according to whatever their contract with the label states. Labels are then represented by the RIAA, not ASCAP.

Songwriters are a different entity entirely, which is what I thought ASCAP and BMI are supposed to be about?

As an aside, why are they just dealing with radio? What about streaming?
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by mikehalloran »

The rest of the world pays performers (artists) for broadcast AirPlay. The USA does not. Because of this, U.S. Artists do not get paid by foreign radio, either only the creators (songwriters and publishers).

This is in the copyright law. It would take an Act of Congress to change this. Many of us lobbied in 1975-76 to get this changed but the broadcast lobby was too powerful with their "benefits of playing for exposure" nonsense.

As I understand the federal consent decrees, ASCAP and BMI are not able to get into this. ASCAP and BMI have released statements that they would like to see things modernized.

When Congress declared that, beginning July, 2008 (correct me if I'm wrong on the date) that streaming internet had to pay both artists and creators, there were dire predictions that the world would end and bla, bla, bla.., I notice that it hasn't. Those royalties are administered by Sound Exchange. This did force a lot of people to come up with a business plan or get the heck out.

Please understand that I speak only for myself and not my employer. We have spokespersons for this.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by James Steele »

Right... can't find it now but apparently there IS a bill in congress to change this? I need to find the article.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by Michael Canavan »

This is why I've always made it clear to bassists and drummers I work with that they get publishing rights as well. The fact that only the music and lyric writer typically get anything is IMO insane when it comes to things like rock bands. I guess an example would be Rush right? the drummer writes the lyrics and the guitar player writes the music, so Geddy Lee the bass player and singer would get no money from airplay? Am I understanding that right?
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by James Steele »

Michael Canavan wrote:This is why I've always made it clear to bassists and drummers I work with that they get publishing rights as well. The fact that only the music and lyric writer typically get anything is IMO insane when it comes to things like rock bands. I guess an example would be Rush right? the drummer writes the lyrics and the guitar player writes the music, so Geddy Lee the bass player and singer would get no money from airplay? Am I understanding that right?
I agree with you about that. For a rock band situation, it can be really divisive if certain members are making a *disproportionate* amount of money compared to other members. It can lead to band squabbles as well as members holding back good ideas to keep them for themselves, rather than contribute a good part to someone else's song.

Some bands solve the problem by simply splitting royalties in equal parts to all band members. On the other hand, I'm not sure that's not always entirely fair either. I can see it from both sides. Many times there's a key band member who is often pouring more of his/her own financial resources into a project and taking more risk than the others, as well as contributing more in the way of hours of work on promotion, marketing, recording expenses, gear, etc. Like most businesses, the amount of compensation should be in proportion, to some extent, on how much time/capital one has invested in it.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by Michael Canavan »

James Steele wrote: I agree with you about that. For a rock band situation, it can be really divisive if certain members are making a *disproportionate* amount of money compared to other members. It can lead to band squabbles as well as members holding back good ideas to keep them for themselves, rather than contribute a good part to someone else's song.

Some bands solve the problem by simply splitting royalties in equal parts to all band members. On the other hand, I'm not sure that's not always entirely fair either. I can see it from both sides. Many times there's a key band member who is often pouring more of his/her own financial resources into a project and taking more risk than the others, as well as contributing more in the way of hours of work on promotion, marketing, recording expenses, gear, etc. Like most businesses, the amount of compensation should be in proportion, to some extent, on how much time/capital one has invested in it.
Agreed, though if everyone contributes to the expenses and the drummer for instance comes up with all his own drum parts they should be compensated. I get it with a lazy bass player only playing the root note or a second guitarist you have to show what to play, but things like a band we both like that's playing it's last tour without the original drummer due to him not getting justly compensated etc, it's really a dammed shame.
Adding insult to injury with no radio cash either.... :mumble:
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by mikehalloran »

Michael Canavan wrote:This is why I've always made it clear to bassists and drummers I work with that they get publishing rights as well. The fact that only the music and lyric writer typically get anything is IMO insane when it comes to things like rock bands. I guess an example would be Rush right? the drummer writes the lyrics and the guitar player writes the music, so Geddy Lee the bass player and singer would get no money from airplay? Am I understanding that right?
Not quite. Being Canadian, they get paid for air play worldwide -- except in the U.S.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by James Steele »

Michael Canavan wrote:
James Steele wrote: I agree with you about that. For a rock band situation, it can be really divisive if certain members are making a *disproportionate* amount of money compared to other members. It can lead to band squabbles as well as members holding back good ideas to keep them for themselves, rather than contribute a good part to someone else's song.

Some bands solve the problem by simply splitting royalties in equal parts to all band members. On the other hand, I'm not sure that's not always entirely fair either. I can see it from both sides. Many times there's a key band member who is often pouring more of his/her own financial resources into a project and taking more risk than the others, as well as contributing more in the way of hours of work on promotion, marketing, recording expenses, gear, etc. Like most businesses, the amount of compensation should be in proportion, to some extent, on how much time/capital one has invested in it.
Agreed, though if everyone contributes to the expenses and the drummer for instance comes up with all his own drum parts they should be compensated. I get it with a lazy bass player only playing the root note or a second guitarist you have to show what to play, but things like a band we both like that's playing it's last tour without the original drummer due to him not getting justly compensated etc, it's really a dammed shame.
Adding insult to injury with no radio cash either.... :mumble:
I get where you're coming from. And I agree Bill Ward should have been offered a better deal. That said, it completely depends on how unique or crucial the part is to the song as to whether coming up with a "drum part" rises to the level "songwriting." Granted, I don't think it should be just dismissed either and in those cases, I think the band should come to an internal agreement about those things.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by mikehalloran »

I think the band should come to an internal agreement about those things.
IMO, that's as bad as dying without a will.

Twice I was recruited to join groups only to be told that they just went into the studio for their new album but they were using the old member for the recording. I wasn't going to be on any tracks nor was I going to share. I let them know that, since I would be touring to support this and would be expected to push this product from the stage, I expected to be on some of the cuts. When that idea was dismissed, I turned down the gig. In both cases, they chased me for a long time to reconsider but never offered me better terms.

I didn't mind being the hired gun but not being on any tracks of the new product I had to sell was unacceptable to me. Both groups are still around through many personnel changes but neither went big. I don't know if I'd have made a difference. No regrets.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote:
I think the band should come to an internal agreement about those things.
IMO, that's as bad as dying without a will.

Twice I was recruited to join groups only to be told that they just went into the studio for their new album but they were using the old member for the recording. I wasn't going to be on any tracks nor was I going to share.
What if the album was already recorded and mixed and a band was put together after the recording was made by a songwriter. Would you want to have the parts re-tracked and the album re-mixed and re-mastered with your parts?
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by mikehalloran »

James Steele wrote:
mikehalloran wrote:
I think the band should come to an internal agreement about those things.
IMO, that's as bad as dying without a will.

Twice I was recruited to join groups only to be told that they just went into the studio for their new album but they were using the old member for the recording. I wasn't going to be on any tracks nor was I going to share.
What if the album was already recorded and mixed and a band was put together after the recording was made by a songwriter. Would you want to have the parts re-tracked and the album re-mixed and re-mastered with your parts?
Don't be silly. Of course not. Earlier work was not the issue. Neither were there tracks to erase as they hadn't been recorded yet.

Both cases, the group was beginning a new album when I was being recruited after the old member had announced he was leaving. I was to sing lead in one and be a featured instrumentalist in the other... Exercising my freedom of choice, I said no. Since both groups still exist in one form or another, I won't drop names.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote:Don't be silly. Of course not. Earlier work was not the issue. Neither were there tracks to erase as they hadn't been recorded yet.

Both cases, the group was beginning a new album when I was being recruited after the old member had announced he was leaving. I was to sing lead in one and be a featured instrumentalist in the other... Exercising my freedom of choice, I said no. Since both groups still exist in one form or another, I won't drop names.
Wasn't trying to say it was silly. Just giving you another hypothetical. And I agree it would be silly. And that's why I said individuals are free to make internal legal agreements in bands: freedom of choice. You said "no" which is your right. In general terms, not everything needs to be legislated. If someone doesn't like the arrangement, they can say no.
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Re: IRespectMusic.org

Post by Phil O »

mikehalloran wrote:
...Twice I was recruited to join groups only to be told that they just went into the studio for their new album but they were using the old member for the recording. I wasn't going to be on any tracks nor was I going to share. I let them know that, since I would be touring to support this and would be expected to push this product from the stage, I expected to be on some of the cuts.
I've got a similar situation. I recorded a band a few years back. They have three CDs which they sell at gigs. Not much money here, but they are making a little extra with sales. Now, I'm IN the band, but not on the CDs, and I already made money recording the projects. Should I share in the profits from CD sales? The question has come up, but hasn't been decided yet. Whatever the band leader decides is fine with me, but it's a little tricky don't you think?

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