Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

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Guitar Gaz
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by Guitar Gaz »

nk_e wrote: ...it's the "and resulted in piracy" part that is wrong.
I choose my words carefully so that people will read them properly - I didn't say iTunes resulted in piracy, I said "resulted in piracy which is almost the social norm" - there is a big difference.

Its a serious subject - at least read what I said and don't quote out of context. I am not stupid, I know piracy existed before iTunes. However no point in trying to develop a socio-economic argument on a forum if people only part read what you say, quote out of context, and only see what they want to see.

I am not at all pissed off by things - just commenting about the state of things. It doesn't affect me in the slightest - I am making observations from my opinions. Tone - very difficult if people want to read things in words and assume there is anger.

Get the history right? What is this - empirical analysis? The history is as I see it and remember it, and from talking to friends - none of them in the business with a vested interest or links with Apple. Only a few geeks knew about torrenting in 2001 or 2003 or whenever - now old age pensioners know about it. File sharing has only boomed in the last few years post iTunes - I know that because people I know talk about it who never had a clue about it previously. 2001 or 2003 was a long long time ago in digital terms - YouTube was invented in 2005 and is part of the context of piracy. Can anyone truly remember life before YouTube?

I have no links with Apple and no links with competitors, nor any vested interests. I worked in the music biz of old with 16 track tape recorders, and worked with Queen, Status Quo and many others, but also was always a fan buying extensively and going to concerts (still do including small and large venues). I was just observing the changes. Things are as they are.

Where does the "blame" belong? You need to develop that argument yourself as it's a complex socio-economic thesis - or a simple one in that everyone is a potential thief. I am interested in a phenomenon about how music is valued and the change in the economic model. Many of you think Apple's iTunes is some kind of saviour for the music biz. I am sure many would disagree including Taylor Swift!
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by DanielCoe »

If you haven't already you might check out The Lefsetz Letter Blog. He's very insightful about the industry today and where it's heading.


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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by Guitar Gaz »

DanielCoe wrote:If you haven't already you might check out The Lefsetz Letter Blog. He's very insightful about the industry today and where it's heading.
Thanks for this useful insight into someone I had not heard of - here he is on streaming which is pertinent to some of this discussion:
Lefsetz wrote:Even better, why are we discussing the merits of streaming music? Streaming music has already won. It’s the delivery medium of choice. Primarily on YouTube. To rail against streaming music is to rail something established that ain’t going away. Instead, we’ve got all these irrelevant acts complaining that someone moved their cheese and the hoi polloi is tuning out. And let me let you in on a little secret, you only make money when the hoi polloi LISTEN!

That’s your challenge, getting people to pay attention, not pay for music.

If you’re worried about people paying for music, you’re probably concerned with whether Jenga pieces are made out of wood or plastic. You’re so deep in the weeds that you cannot see the forest.

The bottom line is we’ve got a lot of stuff fighting for attention. Not only other music, but books, video, pornography, sex… Everything is now at people’s fingertips, how do you gain an audience?

Not by complaining.

If you’re a middle class artist you’re never going to make the money on streaming that you did on sales back in the pre-internet era. Because today all the superstars of all time are within everybody’s reach. People don’t want to listen to you. And the money is in mass.

And whether you get paid for recordings or not, that’s not where the lion’s share of the money is. Most of the money is in touring and sponsorships. And will continue to be. Because our whole society is moving towards experiences, that’s what people will pay for, human exercises that cannot be purchased anywhere else. .....CD quality streaming is already here. That’s right, both Deezer and Tidal deliver CD quality music. But most people don’t want to pay for it. Either because they can’t hear the difference or they believe it’s too expensive. Want to solve the problem, agitate for a reduction in price. Furthermore, Spotify streams in 320. iTunes doesn’t even sell at that quality....

If Neil Young (read Steve Lukather) were twenty five today, he’d be giving his music away for free. Like Ed Sheeran and David Guetta, who’ve testified to the benefit of streaming and piracy respectively. These guys know it’s a new world. They’ve adjusted. Neil Young is just coasting on his past. Hey, Neil. Only play your new album at your shows, watch your live business dry up!

As for the rest of you…

You want to make money on streaming music?

Stay independent, don’t sign to a label.

Yup, Spotify pays quite well if you’re the only rightsholder. Assuming people are listening. But you wanted to make a deal with a major for that marketing and promotion push and now you’re bitching about payment. The public does not care. Just like they didn’t care about making the Tidal owners rich. This is inside baseball, take your complaint off the homepage, you’re only muddying the water, you’re driving people FROM streaming, and your only hope is to get people to stream. CDs are dead. Most computers don’t even come with a disk drive anymore. As for files… Why don’t you try selling 45s while you’re at it.

Just shut up. Stop trying to line your personal coffers and get in the pit with your audience. How does this help your audience Neil, if they can no longer hear your music? But they can! On YouTube for free, which sounds even worse! Or they can steal it! But the more difficult you make access, the more marginal you become. You’re old, you can run on fumes, but anybody following your lead is brain dead.

So let’s forget Neil Young.

But let’s admit that streaming is here to stay. And sure, we want people to pay for it, but the truth is we’re building careers. And careers rain down money. And if you’ve got a career, you’re set.

Neil already has his.

But how about the people who don’t?

They should embrace streaming, they should tell everybody to sign up. They should make access to their music cheap and easy. And argue about the division of revenues off the field.

P.S. Remember when AC/DC wouldn’t be on iTunes? Now they’re not only there, but streaming services too. History tells us these transitions are momentary kerfuffles and only those who can’t see the future or are waiting for a paycheck hold out, oftentimes to their detriment.
I really like Neil Young but can't disagree with some of the sentiments expressed by Lefsetz - an interesting view on the business who no doubt some will find controversial.
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by nk_e »

Guitar Gaz wrote:
nk_e wrote: ...it's the "and resulted in piracy" part that is wrong.
I choose my words carefully so that people will read them properly - I didn't say iTunes resulted in piracy, I said "resulted in piracy which is almost the social norm" - there is a big difference.

Its a serious subject - at least read what I said and don't quote out of context. I am not stupid, I know piracy existed before iTunes. However no point in trying to develop a socio-economic argument on a forum if people only part read what you say, quote out of context, and only see what they want to see.
I didn't quote anything out of context. I quoted you - your whole paragraph - exactly. If you meant something different, your wording is unclear.
Guitar Gaz wrote:I am not at all pissed off by things - just commenting about the state of things. It doesn't affect me in the slightest - I am making observations from my opinions. Tone - very difficult if people want to read things in words and assume there is anger.

Get the history right? What is this - empirical analysis? The history is as I see it and remember it, and from talking to friends - none of them in the business with a vested interest or links with Apple. Only a few geeks knew about torrenting in 2001 or 2003 or whenever - now old age pensioners know about it. File sharing has only boomed in the last few years post iTunes - I know that because people I know talk about it who never had a clue about it previously. 2001 or 2003 was a long long time ago in digital terms - YouTube was invented in 2005 and is part of the context of piracy. Can anyone truly remember life before YouTube?
I guess everyone's experience is different. Knowledge of it was pretty wide spread according to my recollections. The mistake we may both be making is taking anecdotal evidence based on our limited samples and extrapolating more broadly.
Guitar Gaz wrote:I have no links with Apple and no links with competitors, nor any vested interests. I worked in the music biz of old with 16 track tape recorders, and worked with Queen, Status Quo and many others, but also was always a fan buying extensively and going to concerts (still do including small and large venues). I was just observing the changes. Things are as they are.

Where does the "blame" belong? You need to develop that argument yourself as it's a complex socio-economic thesis - or a simple one in that everyone is a potential thief. I am interested in a phenomenon about how music is valued and the change in the economic model. Many of you think Apple's iTunes is some kind of saviour for the music biz. I am sure many would disagree including Taylor Swift!
I don't know if iTunes is a saviour or not. My personal view is that the democratization of music making (a good thing in my book), has created an oversupply of "product" and de-valued the output. In a commoditized industry, the successful producer (in an industrial sense) either becomes the lowest cost producer, monoplozes the market, and makes profit on volume (assuming there is a non-zero price floor), or they move upstream in the production process. (In a sense Jeff Rona and Orbit from WideBlueSound may be an example of this.) Who knows what the end game is going to be with these trends....

Peace.

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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by Guitar Gaz »

nk_e wrote: Who knows what the end game is going to be with these trends....

Peace.
Agreed.

It's not a mistake to take our limited anecdotal evidence and extrapolate more broadly - that's called opinion. It's what artists do too. It may cause debate and disagreement - nothing wrong with that - thanks for your input - I will choose my words a bit more carefully so as to avoid misunderstandings.
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by mikehalloran »

Of all the services mentioned, only iTunes is making a profit. They are also paying the best. The others are sucking down venture capital at a rate that makes the dot com bubble of 16 years ago look like a playpen.

This is an interesting article. Warning: severe Taylor Swift content:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by Guitar Gaz »

mikehalloran wrote:Of all the services mentioned, only iTunes is making a profit. They are also paying the best. The others are sucking down venture capital at a rate that makes the dot com bubble of 16 years ago look like a playpen.

This is an interesting article. Warning: severe Taylor Swift content:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html
Yes - very interesting. I pay for my daughters to have Spotify partly to stop them downloading illegally in case there is a crackdown. That amounts to £4.99 each per month. That seems to work for them although I do not know how much streaming of movies occurs on other sites or even YouTube. But streaming like Spotify (and maybe Apple Music) is the way forward. My point would be if it's keenly priced and by subscription, people seem happy to pay. Also I gather (from what I hear from some people) that it is more difficult to download stuff now as certain service providers are blocking many sites. So the business model is evolving as we speak but there will always be piracy (the far east and the former soviet block are renowned for this and have been going back to the 60's and 70's).
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by mikehalloran »

You might find this interesting as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgehowar ... -business/

The times are definitely changing.
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by monkey man »

I too was surprised at the ignorance of some respondents to the first rant when they claimed that TOTO was a nothing / useless / mediocre band. Incredible.

Apart from their obvious hits, rock pieces such as Mama are the s#%t!

Great engineering, production, songwriting and playing, and IMHO you'd have to be deaf not to hear it... or incredibly ignorant in the true sense of the word (meaning to willingly ignore).

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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by monkey man »

Well, I listened to his latest album (3 years old) "Transition" for the first time last night.

Apparently, since he's "cleaned up" (his words) his life (Christianity, partying & lifestyle etc.), his playing has reached a new level of maturity. He's switched to passive PUs from the uber-fat EMGs, and IMHO a greater sensitivity and finesse shines through now.

The album's less aggressive-sounding too, sporting more ballads and dulcet tones both vocally and guitar-wise.

I'm not easily impressed on first listens, but this time I was. I have all his stuff, as well as TOTO's, and I have to say that he's a rare example of a guitarist who, even 'though he's always been at the top of his game, hasn't stagnated to the extent I'd feared. This is great news for Luke fans, IMHO; the future looks bright... as long as he doesn't let the internet break him. LOL

Hopefully he'll have learned from this experience and concentrate more on making music than sharing his observations with "the masses". I'm someone who is affected by contention on the 'net; I've no idea how he handles it, but IMHO it's difficult to imagine how it could nurture one's creativity or boost creative energy.

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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

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monkey man wrote:Well, I listened to his latest album (3 years old) "Transition" for the first time last night.

Apparently, since he's "cleaned up" (his words) his life (Christianity, partying & lifestyle etc.), his playing has reached a new level of maturity. He's switched to passive PUs from the uber-fat EMGs, and IMHO a greater sensitivity and finesse shines through now.

The album's less aggressive-sounding too, sporting more ballads and dulcet tones both vocally and guitar-wise.

I'm not easily impressed on first listens, but this time I was. I have all his stuff, as well as TOTO's, and I have to say that he's a rare example of a guitarist who, even 'though he's always been at the top of his game, hasn't stagnated to the extent I'd feared. This is great news for Luke fans, IMHO; the future looks bright... as long as he doesn't let the internet break him. LOL

Hopefully he'll have learned from this experience and concentrate more on making music than sharing his observations with "the masses". I'm someone who is affected by contention on the 'net; I've no idea how he handles it, but IMHO it's difficult to imagine how it could nurture one's creativity or boost creative energy.
Haven't heard it, but after your review, I'll probably check it out over the weekend. The dude is definitely an awesome guitarist and you're right about him not stagnating. Definitely agree about the PUPs too. I especially like the '57 classics I've got in my 335. Much more dynamics to my ears than the active ones I've tried so far.
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by Sean Kenny »

Just for the record :)

Based on UK prices about 10 years ago, iTunes is a much better deal than the record shop sales

Take a £10 album (Retail Price) for example (for ease of division)
Published Dealer Price £5.50 (i.e. shop takes £4.50 for starters!)
Distributor £1.10 (20% of PDP)
Discounts £0.55 about 5% of PDP (which the distributors were all too happy to give cos you're paying!)

Net to you, 'the record label' £3.90

Add on the risk factors of manufacturing

'Yesteryear':-

1: Manufacturing: anything from £0.80 to £1.00 per unit (1000 minimum feasible quantity)
2: MCPS: (uk publishing royalty for use of song on record) £0.56 per unit (8.5% PDP plus VAT 20% or 6.5% or retail) and unlike majors who only paid on sales (AP1 licence) you paid this up front on pressing (AP2 licence)
3: Returns: "Shop Sales" are only sales if they don't return and boy....can they!

as opposed to

Risk factors 'Today':-

1: Manufacturing: ZERO
2: MCPS: ... zero risk as only paid on sales. MCPS is still paid, but by your digital distributor on your behalf (i.e. paid by you really). Eg I think iTunes takes about 36% but in actual fact they're only really taking about 30% as the amount you receive is net of MCPS
3: Returns: ZERO

The real difference is the loss of industry control

The beauty is, any one can do it
The problem is, any one can do it

It's the same cake, it's just that it's not an exclusive cake anymore and technology and the internet have come along and smashed it into thousands of crumbs. But the crumbs are there for anyone who wants to carve out a tiny little piece of the market.

The illustrious few who enjoyed the exclusivity of a nice big slice every year are no doubt feeling the pain.

My view is quite pragmatic really. Like many, I miss the 70's and the myriad of great bands and artistes no matter what the genre and the variety and inventiveness, let alone the musicianship (the list from the 70's, is endless!!!). For me this was the real music industry heyday.

On the other hand I don't miss buying an album in the mid 90's for £16 (equivalent of £30 at today's prices) for 2 good songs and 9 crap ones!

In my opinion though, accountants/bean counters and big business F***ED! the music industry way before downloading and streaming came along. Amalgamations, consolidations and the endless buying up of independent labels and radio stations was well under way by then.

Don't forget though, the "industry" as it was in it's heyday is only a 20th century phenomenon, music has survived for thousands of years without an "industry".

It's just going back to being truly vocational. Is that such a bad thing! After all none of the 'Greats' be they, singers, songwriters or players did it for the money. Survival?... maybe .... but not necessarily monetary.

The last bastian of the old model is radio and that is so monopolised and controlled (even automated) nowadays, that the sooner that dies, the better. Public wifi and in car internet radio/streaming will probably finish that off. If it isn't already! I have 4 sons ranging from 21 to 25 (all avid music listeners) and "in-car" is the only time they listen to the radio and even that is more seldom as they regularly plugin in their smart phones in preference.

Anyway sorry to have rattled on so long.

For what it's worth; the 'old model' shop sale figures quoted above are based on first hand experience and not conjecture.
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by monkey man »

Hard to disagree with anything you said, Sean. Lots of ground covered there.

... and yes, the '70s was where it was at. Best rock, funk, fusion, disco and so on, no doubt... IMHO.
guitardood wrote: Haven't heard it, but after your review, I'll probably check it out over the weekend. The dude is definitely an awesome guitarist and you're right about him not stagnating. Definitely agree about the PUPs too. I especially like the '57 classics I've got in my 335. Much more dynamics to my ears than the active ones I've tried so far.
Thank you for the vote of confidence, Doodster.

A small warning: In keeping with the new "paradigm" of "restraint", he appears to have dialled back the length of his breaks too, which as you might expect was a surprise and a little disappointing to me. Where he could have taken 16, he took 8... even 4! That's restraint, brother!

Fortunately the overall class of the project compensates for this and makes the lead-break downtime less excruciating! LOL

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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by James Steele »

Chiming in regarding passive pickups versus active. I have to throw in with the passive crowd. I prefer them by far.
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Re: Steve Lukather Rant About Music Biz

Post by mikehalloran »

James Steele wrote:Chiming in regarding passive pickups versus active. I have to throw in with the passive crowd. I prefer them by far.
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