Ghost writing!

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ironchef_marc
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Ghost writing!

Post by ironchef_marc »

Not something many will talk openly or publicly so feel free to PM me. I would appreciate to hear your experience as a ghost writer or using ghost writers.
First off can anyone please tell me what the understood rules are for ghost writing? (ok ignore rule 1 where you don't talk about it!)
What kind of compensation do you typically get and how is it calculated?
Any backend shared too?
There are various tiers of ghost writing from, a few cues to entire projects.
Then the question: at what point does "additional music" becomes more than that?
On an ethical level, is it right? Isn't it plagiarism and false representation?
What about those contract clauses that expect the hired composer to do at least 80% of the actual work?

If someone is too busy to do a gig and needs to pretty much farm it all out to someone else to get it done, shouldn't he simply not take the gig and leave it to someone else who will actually do the work?
I started to notice more and more shared music credit on films. Why isn't this done more often? Makes sense with the amount of work and little time given these days.
Why are some composers so reluctant to share credit? Does it take away anything from them?
Last edited by ironchef_marc on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cuttime
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by cuttime »

How much public humiliation is one to endure?:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/arts/ ... .html?_r=2
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by mikehalloran »

Farming out cues is done all the time. I've been on both sides of it. In my case, always with a contract. No reason to do it any other way. Often, only the lead is credited publicly but the cue sheets as filed with the PROs need to be accurate.

Arrangers do not normally share in royalties and often are not credited but they should be well paid for their work up front.
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

The one and only time I hired a composer to score something was for a :30 spot of background music for a production ad. It was a disaster!
I had to rewrite the spot from scratch.

I'd hire top notch orchestrators & copyists and maybe an arranger if under extreme pressure. But NEVER will I EVER hire a composer to write, ghost or not.

If you want to get something done right, as usual, do it yourself.
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by ironchef_marc »

Can anyone tell me what kind of deal they had for cue sheets?
I've heard people getting nothing, others 50/50 split. Has anyone been able to get their full royalties on cues they wrote?
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

ironchef_marc wrote:Can anyone tell me what kind of deal they had for cue sheets?
I've heard people getting nothing, others 50/50 split. Has anyone been able to get their full royalties on cues they wrote?
Always, except for splitting with another publisher on the same work for some reason - ghost writing not being one of them.

I don't ghost write but I know people who have and do for some of the biggest names in the industry (Hamlish, Harnik, L. Bernstein, et al) and my understanding is that they get NO royalties and are creating a complete buyout. Not that they have regretted doing it because they get paid very handsomely for the work. Every man (and maybe woman, but I don't pretend to ever speak for them) has their price. I would certainly ghost write for someone for the right price. Knowing the value of broadcast content I would not easily part with my work for less than a shitload of cash, but again, every man has his price.

If you are looking for a split, then you are also looking at a low front end. I only once or twice agree to backend deals as a composer (I was so young and innocent... sniff sniff). That is not to say that collaborations aren't possible, but not at the cost of handing over all rights, title and interest to a work.

A fair way to evaluate a collaborative split would be to balance both the investment and risk (and to some degree, responsibility for the final delivery) against the amount of actual writing each will be doing. One of my friends who writes a lot for Disney says that they do, indeed, take 100% of the publisher's share. He and his collaborators split the writers share, which, given the distribution is a pretty damn good deal, IMO. But the lower level producers of content aren't as well heeled or well known. You also have to take into account the potential for broadcast or other distribution and never underestimate the benefit of publicity and exposure as these have real value.

The bottom line is this: If YOU are GHOST writing, you are, in fact, just like a ghost and disappear for good (usually under a strict written agreement), so GET THE MONEY UP FRONT! If you want to hire a ghost writer, be prepared to shell out a shitload of coin for a competent professional writer who will make you look good and possibly collect on that for all time to come. See ya. Goodbye. Adios. Hit the road, Jack. Call my lawyer with any questions...

Two possibilities ultimately exist for every tune you write. One is assured. The other.... well, you never know.


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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by ironchef_marc »

Well I've heard various stories from low hourly pay to write cues with no backend, to per minute of music written with split 50/50 of cue sheets (meaning main composer gets 1/2 royalties of cues his ghostwriter did) and also totally fair composer (surprisingly!)who will not only pay properly up front, give rightfully their full royalties but will also demand their ghostwriter to get credits. Note here I mean the author portion of the cue sheets not the publishing as most film production companies will take the publishing.

All this from current living, active and in many cases very famous composers some of which you would never suspect, exploit unscrupulously other fellow composers.
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

You can write anything you want in a contract but the "classic" ghost writer is called that for a reason. There is certainly a culture for green, inexperienced (usually college grads) to "apprentice" with an established composer with the promise they'll get thrown a few bones and that works for those greenhorns. No well established composer would do that. They can get their own damn coffee. Lol
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by Kubi »

There are a number of very fair composers out there. Cliff Martinez comes to mind - crediting his co-writers cost him an Oscar nom.

To me the minimum would be cue sheet credit commensurate with your contribution (so if you wrote the whole thing, you get all the writer's), and if at all possible, an "additional music by" credit.

The reality is often not like this. A massive crook like Haim Saban has built a decent (or rather, indecent) chunk of his empire by stealing thousands of hours of cue sheet credit. (When I drive by those hospital wings here in LA with his name on them, I often think, how much of that donation was directly stolen from writers he paid a measly $40k a year and then had the chutzpah to claim he wrote more than 1000 hours of score, and his wife and another exec wrote a whole bunch more... may he burn in hell for a number of millenia.)

But ultimately, it's up to each one of us to simply say, "nope, I won't let you **** me in the *** you ***** little ***********!"

Nobody else will say it for you.

8)
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Or you big***********
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by Kubi »

An offline discussion just prompted this little addendum: Shared cue sheet credit is of course wholly appropriate if the ghost composer wrote the cue, but used the themes and general musical language developed for the film by the main composer. That's a shared contribution, and is therefore entirely valid to also be shared credit.
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by Kubi »

Ah, and PS: Michael, these are the moments I miss having a "Like" button...

:D
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

The little ones don't have the leverage to **** newbies.
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Re: Ghost writing!

Post by mikehalloran »

There are ways to do it right and there are the ways it is often done. You can look up Star Wars in the ASCAP ACE database to see a large number of people credited for their work on those film cues. John Williams is BMI.
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