Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

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Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

I guess the internet radio stations, which are largely small operations, are getting discovered by ASCAP/BMI and told they have to pay something. I don't necessarily disagree with that at all, BTW. So a internet radio station started by some folks who used to be with a different one that played my music, said they want to play my stuff on their new station, but they want me to sign an agreement, the gist of which is to let them off the hook with PROs.

Granted, I'm not some big star and I wouldn't see any sort of royalties anyway, but I am hesitant about this. Even if I expect nothing, I'm concerned that as a member of ASCAP there's a "solidarity" issue here and this exchange for "promotion" seems sort of like betraying my responsibility now as a member of that organization. I'll post the text of this agreement below with identifying info redacted:
The following represents an agreement between the musician, artist, vocalist, musical group, record label, or agent acting on their behalf, and GENERIC INTERNET STATION.
The explicit intent of this agreement is to make valid the use of your music, song(s), lyrics, or any musical composition owned by the musician, artist, vocalist, musical group, or record label, in exchange for promotional exposure on GENERIC INTERNET STATION’s Broadcasting Servers, Website(s), and/ or other media operated by GENERIC INTERNET STATION.
I. Terms found in this agreement:
Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, Record Label, or Agent acting on behalf of the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, or Record Label, shall be referred to as "you," "your," or "yours."
GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.com, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.us, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.net, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.org, and/or any online radio station, webcasters (DJ Staff), music source, or website(s) affiliated with GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC. (As a group), they are referred to as "The Partners."
Any song, composition, music, Images representing the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group or lyrics provided by you shall be referred to as the "product."
Automatic renewal date will be one (1) calendar year from the date of submission/ signature by the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, Record Label, or Agent acting on behalf of the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, or Record Label.
II. Limitations:
Your ownership of the copyright and publishing rights to any music, song, or lyrics submitted by you to the Partners is mandated by this agreement. You also agree to inform us of any changes to ownership or publishing rights. Both of these items are considered understood, and are accepted when you submit this signed agreement to GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC.
Independent Artist Program Song-for-Promotion Exchange Agreement (Page Two of Three)
Should it be discovered that ownership of the copyright and publishing rights belong to anyone other than you, the Partners will be removed from any and all liability to pay, reimburse, and exchange money or merchandise to anyone claiming legal ownership to the copyright or publishing rights of submitted product. If a challenge is made relating to ownership of the product you submit, you agree to pay any and all legal fees, court costs, and/or penalties incurred by the Partners.
III. Agreement and Conditions:
You agree to provide audio product on MP3 file format (promotional images in JPEG format) to the Partners with no expectation of any remuneration; money, trade or merchandise. The Partners agree to present and promote your product to its viewers via its associated websites, Internet radio station(s), webcasters, or music sources with which they have affiliations. Due to its associated webcasters’ right to creative control of their respective shows, The Partners do not promise any guarantee of play of your product.
The Partner’s sole responsibility is to help you promote your music, song, or lyrics via its sources, webcasters, associated Web Sites, associated online radio stations, and music programmers.
As a promotional tool, GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC will offer the sell of your music to its viewers via its online store. This is an Amazon.com Associate Program Store. In order for this to occur, you agree to initially place your product for sale on Amazon.com. Once this is completed, GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC (as a Third Party Distributor) will import your product into its Amazon Associate Program Store for sale. All payments in relation to the sale of your product are managed by Amazon.com through your individual account. As a Third Party Distributor (Amazon Associate Member), GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC will receive four (4) percent of each sale to be paid by Amazon.com.
By submitting this agreement via U.S. Postal Service, Commercial Carrier, or hand delivery, you agree that GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC and/ or the Partners WILL NOT owe you money, trade, or merchandise for any expenses incurred creating, preparing, recording, or shipping of your product. You also acknowledge that using the promotional value offered by the Partners is a fair exchange for any money you may seek from the Partners for any and all use of your product.
IV. Assignment:
The provisions of this agreement shall be binding upon you, your label, your agent, GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC or any successor or merged company or companies acting on your behalf or on behalf of the Partners. This agreement shall automatically renew annually unless either party submits in writing to the other party intent to dissolve it. Written intention to dissolve this agreement must be made at least ninety days before the automatic renewal date.
V. Enforcement:
Independent Artist Program Song-for-Promotion Exchange Agreement (Page Two of Three)
Failure on the part of GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC to enforce any provision of this agreement shall not constitute a waiverof its rights under such provision or any other provisions of this agreement.
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Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I don't see what you get other than some 'air play.' if you think the exposure is worth it, great. Otherwise there is nothing in it for you and everything in it for them.

I'm on my iPhone for a few days out of necessity and can't review the agreement in great detail for a bit. In general, agreements and contracts are for an exchange of goods or services for payment or other valuable consideration. Again, if the exposure is enough for you, great. If, OTOH, the other party is collecting money of any kind in the form of fees or advertising, I'd personally ignore them.

There may be other legal aspects to consider. I noticed in 'skimming' the doc language about copyright and protections of the other party. I did not see similar protections for you in the event of unfounded claims. Your then stuck holding the bag on such claims.

I'll try to return to the thread for details once I am more 'nimble' and able to type on a desktop machine. I'm guessing in a few days if you want me to really go over the agreement in more detail.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

Yeah... I wouldn't bother with looking at it Michael... it seems pretty small potatoes. It doesn't seem to actually include any language about PROs, just says that I expect no remuneration from them in exchange for essentially the promotional value of them playing my music. Since it deals with "direct" remuneration and makes no mention of BMI/ASCAP, I'm beginning to wonder if this is actually any protection for them should ASCAP or BMI come sniffing around and want licensing payments.

The other thing is they want to sell some downloads via their website and get 4%. That's hardly going to make them rich on an indy like myself. Just thought it was interesting is all. I was concerned mostly about the issue of "principle" and doing the right thing in terms of not breaking any sort of unwritten obligation to ASCAP to not agree to something that might have been designed to circumvent them. It's no big deal really.
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Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I don't believe I am prohibited by BMI to negotiate away my license with someone as long as I am not in competition with BMI. Current TV and SITV both tried this and similarly offered zero dollars on return for my work. Clearly such agreements are only for those desperate enough for attention to sign them. Sometimes the terms can be changed and actual $$$ can be had, but those are few and far between.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

I politely declined. I've never been approached with that before, but I have to believe that ASCAP/BMI would make accommodations for a smallish internet radio stations and work out affordable terms. I just sort of feel like I'm selling out my fellow songwriters by going along with that. Even if it makes no difference in the end for me personally financially.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by toodamnhip »

James Steele wrote:I guess the internet radio stations, which are largely small operations, are getting discovered by ASCAP/BMI and told they have to pay something. I don't necessarily disagree with that at all, BTW. So a internet radio station started by some folks who used to be with a different one that played my music, said they want to play my stuff on their new station, but they want me to sign an agreement, the gist of which is to let them off the hook with PROs.

Granted, I'm not some big star and I wouldn't see any sort of royalties anyway, but I am hesitant about this. Even if I expect nothing, I'm concerned that as a member of ASCAP there's a "solidarity" issue here and this exchange for "promotion" seems sort of like betraying my responsibility now as a member of that organization. I'll post the text of this agreement below with identifying info redacted:
The following represents an agreement between the musician, artist, vocalist, musical group, record label, or agent acting on their behalf, and GENERIC INTERNET STATION.
The explicit intent of this agreement is to make valid the use of your music, song(s), lyrics, or any musical composition owned by the musician, artist, vocalist, musical group, or record label, in exchange for promotional exposure on GENERIC INTERNET STATION’s Broadcasting Servers, Website(s), and/ or other media operated by GENERIC INTERNET STATION.
I. Terms found in this agreement:
Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, Record Label, or Agent acting on behalf of the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, or Record Label, shall be referred to as "you," "your," or "yours."
GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.com, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.us, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.net, GENERIC INTERNET STATION.org, and/or any online radio station, webcasters (DJ Staff), music source, or website(s) affiliated with GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC. (As a group), they are referred to as "The Partners."
Any song, composition, music, Images representing the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group or lyrics provided by you shall be referred to as the "product."
Automatic renewal date will be one (1) calendar year from the date of submission/ signature by the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, Record Label, or Agent acting on behalf of the Musician, Artist, Vocalist, Musical Group, or Record Label.
II. Limitations:
Your ownership of the copyright and publishing rights to any music, song, or lyrics submitted by you to the Partners is mandated by this agreement. You also agree to inform us of any changes to ownership or publishing rights. Both of these items are considered understood, and are accepted when you submit this signed agreement to GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC.
Independent Artist Program Song-for-Promotion Exchange Agreement (Page Two of Three)
Should it be discovered that ownership of the copyright and publishing rights belong to anyone other than you, the Partners will be removed from any and all liability to pay, reimburse, and exchange money or merchandise to anyone claiming legal ownership to the copyright or publishing rights of submitted product. If a challenge is made relating to ownership of the product you submit, you agree to pay any and all legal fees, court costs, and/or penalties incurred by the Partners.
III. Agreement and Conditions:
You agree to provide audio product on MP3 file format (promotional images in JPEG format) to the Partners with no expectation of any remuneration; money, trade or merchandise. The Partners agree to present and promote your product to its viewers via its associated websites, Internet radio station(s), webcasters, or music sources with which they have affiliations. Due to its associated webcasters’ right to creative control of their respective shows, The Partners do not promise any guarantee of play of your product.
The Partner’s sole responsibility is to help you promote your music, song, or lyrics via its sources, webcasters, associated Web Sites, associated online radio stations, and music programmers.
As a promotional tool, GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC will offer the sell of your music to its viewers via its online store. This is an Amazon.com Associate Program Store. In order for this to occur, you agree to initially place your product for sale on Amazon.com. Once this is completed, GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC (as a Third Party Distributor) will import your product into its Amazon Associate Program Store for sale. All payments in relation to the sale of your product are managed by Amazon.com through your individual account. As a Third Party Distributor (Amazon Associate Member), GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC will receive four (4) percent of each sale to be paid by Amazon.com.
By submitting this agreement via U.S. Postal Service, Commercial Carrier, or hand delivery, you agree that GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC and/ or the Partners WILL NOT owe you money, trade, or merchandise for any expenses incurred creating, preparing, recording, or shipping of your product. You also acknowledge that using the promotional value offered by the Partners is a fair exchange for any money you may seek from the Partners for any and all use of your product.
IV. Assignment:
The provisions of this agreement shall be binding upon you, your label, your agent, GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC or any successor or merged company or companies acting on your behalf or on behalf of the Partners. This agreement shall automatically renew annually unless either party submits in writing to the other party intent to dissolve it. Written intention to dissolve this agreement must be made at least ninety days before the automatic renewal date.
V. Enforcement:
Independent Artist Program Song-for-Promotion Exchange Agreement (Page Two of Three)
Failure on the part of GENERIC INTERNET STATION LLC to enforce any provision of this agreement shall not constitute a waiverof its rights under such provision or any other provisions of this agreement.
If writer and artists don;t stand firm on stuff like this, they will be bulldozed into extinction.
There’s always some sort of lame ass excuse to not pay nowadays. “No budget for recording, we need it to promote the record”, “we are taking a chance on you and need,,,blah blah blah”..
The weaker musicians appear, the more industry vultures will prey upon them with “excuses”.
Don’t sign!
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

toodamnhip wrote:If writer and artists don;t stand firm on stuff like this, they will be bulldozed into extinction.
There’s always some sort of lame ass excuse to not pay nowadays. “No budget for recording, we need it to promote the record”, “we are taking a chance on you and need,,,blah blah blah”..
The weaker musicians appear, the more industry vultures will prey upon them with “excuses”.
Don’t sign!
See my previous post just above yours. I didn't. Didn't elaborate, just told them I couldn't. I can't believe ASCAP/BMI can't make accommodations for small internet radio stations and don't think I should help someone do an end run around PROs if the licensing they'd have to pay is reasonable.

I'll make another point too. I'm not someone who really stands to make any money being a rather unknown indy artist. I could look at it from a point of self-interest and just sign it, but that way of seeing things is short-sighted. I want to preserve rights for all of us, even if I don't directly benefit. We shouldn't trade away our rights.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by toodamnhip »

James Steele wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:If writer and artists don;t stand firm on stuff like this, they will be bulldozed into extinction.
There’s always some sort of lame ass excuse to not pay nowadays. “No budget for recording, we need it to promote the record”, “we are taking a chance on you and need,,,blah blah blah”..
The weaker musicians appear, the more industry vultures will prey upon them with “excuses”.
Don’t sign!
See my previous post just above yours. I didn't. Didn't elaborate, just told them I couldn't. I can't believe ASCAP/BMI can't make accommodations for small internet radio stations and don't think I should help someone do an end run around PROs if the licensing they'd have to pay is reasonable.

I'll make another point too. I'm not someone who really stands to make any money being a rather unknown indy artist. I could look at it from a point of self-interest and just sign it, but that way of seeing things is short-sighted. I want to preserve rights for all of us, even if I don't directly benefit. We shouldn't trade away our rights.
You might not stand to make any money, but if you had accepted, you stand to not make a stand...lol...

And stand to add, (albeit ever so slightly)..to the destruction of the music rights of creators of intellectual property.
There is a true “mini-war” occurring in this world wherein intellectual property has been deemed to be “free” by the masses. And the intellectual creators tend to be rather passive and thus, slow to act, organize, etc.
It all started with a spunky college student in Northern Cali starting Napster, and that little mud slide has turned into a land slide.

I think it will all turn out ok eventually, but these times will long be looked at as a time of great transformation in all society due to the internet and the digitizing of everything, including intellectual property.

Glad you didn’t sign.
Sorry if you lost an avenue for your music.
PM me a link to it and I’ll listen...... :D
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

I'll PM you, but just click the "Facebook" link in my sig and it will take you to a page with a music player on it. :) And yes... was not going to contribute to the erosion of rights going on.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by mikehalloran »

This garbage is an artist agreement. It is amateurish nonsense, besides. I would be surprised if a lawyer had anything to do ith it. It appears to be just as binding as the "poor man's copyright" - in other words, not at all.

Its only power lies in the gullibility of anyone signing it to believe that they committed to such a flagrant violation of their rights.

Unlike US airplay, Internet radio must play artists in addition to the songwriters - like radio does in Europe.This nonsensical "agreement" is an attempt to get around the copyright laws and international treaties binding the 146 countries belonging to the Berne Convention.

Internet radio is international. It is not the same as having a 10W station with a 3 mile range. Paying songwriters and artists for the privilege of broadcasting their intellectual property is part of the price of doing business. The USA joined the rest of the world in July, 2007 by requiring that American broadcasters comply with international laws regarding Internet radio.

The above is my opinion only. I am not a lawyer. If you want a legal opinion, pay a attorney.
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Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Did someone blame the licensing agents? Complaining that they lag in licensing Internet use is hardly blaming them for a lame attempt to defraud an artist.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote:Stop blaming ASCAP or BMI for this nonsense. They collect performance rights for their writer and publisher members only and have nothing whatsoever to do with artists.
Mike:

A) Who are you directing this at?

B) I didn't blame ASCAP/BMI. Don't recall anybody else doing so. All I said is that I trust that ASCAP/BMI is not requesting an unreasonable amount.

Yes, internet radio stations have the *potential* to reach a large and/or international audience. In my experience, very few of them do. They are mom & pop operations... literally someone with a computer in the corner of their living room with amateur "DJ's" that work out of their homes. It's really too bad there's no way to charge them based on the number of "streaming minutes" per month, because these are mostly small time operations and I imagine their average listenership is MUCH lower than a terrestrial radio station.

I understand all about not giving up my rights and I politely refused to sign the agreement and thereby forfeit whatever small "promotional value" airplay on this station represented, despite having nothing to gain financially. Still, I can't really comment intelligently, because I don't know much license fees would be for a "hobbyist" running a "station" out of their home that has a relatively small listener base. If the fees were modest, I'd have no sympathy for them. If the fees were out of proportion to the actual audience of the station, I'd understand their motivation for attempting an "end-run" around PROs like this. I suspect the majority of independent bands/musicians who are struggling to succeed sign it anyway, as they may not appreciate that this is part of a larger battle.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Did someone blame the licensing agents?
I must have missed that too. I saw nobody blaming ASCAP/BMI. Fact of the matter is, I didn't sign the agreement even though I really had nothing to gain personally by refusing, and actually made sure some new people that haven't heard my music won't. Solidarity brothers! :D
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by FutureLegends »

A few months ago I was a guest at a radio show at a big radio station here in Sweden. My radio appearances have been a bit too far between, but afterwards I thought "hey, it's kinda fun talking about myself on the radio" ;). So I started thinking about the possibilities of sending web-radio. But then I realised, well, I need an internet connection then. I was only using my iPhone as a modem at home. But then it struck me, we have a monster internet connection at the studio pretty much for free. And that would also mean I could send live performances and stuff!
I did a bit of research and it looked like the software I needed would just cost me $40 so that was no issue... But then I looked into the STIM (Swedish version of ACAP/BMI/GEMA) and the license fee for up to 5000 listeners was, if I recall correctly, around $50 a month. Not a lot of money but as this was going to be a non-profit, mainly for fun venture, I couldn't really justify $600 a year to do it. I looked into funding it through webpage ads, but that would mean I'd need to generate a lot of visitors to the webpage. So I thought, what if I could put up the shows as podcasts on the page or something similar. But then it would probaly be a whole new licensing deal. I know most of the swedish "rock'n'roll royalty" so I could probably get a lot of them to come and perform and thus generate interest. But all these licensing mess is just too much money & work for something that I have no intentions of doing as a living.

Not sure if there's a moral to this story but thought I'd share it anyway.

It's a shame there's no easier way, cause independent artists need independent radio, whether it's internet or regular. Commercial radio is just looping the same crap over and over again, so I feel there's a need for smaller operators.
Maybe a cut of eventual profits would be more fair? Some licensing form that if you have below xx amount of listeners you only pay a cut of any profit?

Personally I'd rather have my music reach people than make a tiny bit of money off some enthusiast broadcasting out of his mom's basement in Nebraska or something.
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Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

FutureLegends wrote:Personally I'd rather have my music reach people than make a tiny bit of money off some enthusiast broadcasting out of his mom's basement in Nebraska or something.
That's really the crux of the matter. Although to tell you the truth, $50/month doesn't sound like much if someone is serious about their "hobby." If all ASCAP/BMI wants from these guys is $50/month, I'm not that sympathetic. Flip side is, by refusing to sign an agreement that I'm pretty sure a majority of independent are, I end up penalizing myself, ostensibly for the "greater good." In reality, if they're only paying $50/mo to ASCAP, I'm not likely to see a dime anyway. I'm taking a stand purely on principle.
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