Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

For discussion of the music business in general

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
For discussion of the music business in general from studio administration, contracts, artist promotion, gigging, etc.
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

If collection is based on actual airplay of specific songs then I'm in favor of PRO collection. If it is based on a 'sampling' playlist then it is unfair, IMO. The 'little guy' with minimal www usage of his catalogue won't see much while the record companies with large, popular catelogues will reap the lion's share of the distributions. It would be necessary for the users (www broadcasters) to file detailed cue sheets for the system to really work. In theory, they'd have to also report the number of downloads and that could also be telling more about the popularity of their site than they might otherwise want known.

I have plenty to bitch about how the PROs work but a-hole webmasters ain't one of 'em.

In the end, I think a person's work is worth what they believe it's worth. Getting that price is a long road for most of us and caving for a little obscure PR ain't worth it in the big picture - unless you just can't get the attention and work by good, old fashioned quality writing, performing, and pavement pounding.

Just sayin...
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21068
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:...and caving for a little obscure PR ain't worth it in the big picture - unless you just can't get the attention and work by good, old fashioned quality writing, performing, and pavement pounding.
Agree 100%, as confirmed by my actions on this matter! :)
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
FutureLegends
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by FutureLegends »

Although I agree $50 isn't much but what if that amount stops a 100 stations from broadcasting, stations that would play my songs and would reach 4000/each? That would mean I'd miss the chance to get my music out to 400.000 people that would perhaps buy a CD/download go to our shows, buy a t-shirt etc...
Since the big stations (at least here in Sweden) only play stuff that are on major labels and/or have been on Idol/TV, the chance of getting on a radio station where some money is earned is almost nil, anyway.
If someone runs a non-profit station but likes my music enough to promote it I have no problems with that without getting paid cause I'm gaining from it in other ways. If someone uses my work to earn money, yes, I want a cut.

What's really needed is some regulation prohibiting the big/commercial stations from playing the same damn songs 4 times an hour! That would make more room for more artists to get airplay! ;)
Hackintosh 6-Core 3.7ghz/32gb ram, macOS Mojave
Hardware: Apollo 8, Apollo 8p, Apollo Twin mkII, MOTU 828mk3 & Original 828 | UA LA-610 | Vanguard V13 Tube Mic | MindPrint En-Voice | Genelec M040AM | Gretsch Guitars & Drums
Software: DP8 | FCPX | Logic Pro X | Play
| EWQL Gypsy, Choirs, Orchestra Gold, VoP | EZDrummer w/ Twizted Kit | Action Strings
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21068
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

FutureLegends wrote:Although I agree $50 isn't much but what if that amount stops a 100 stations from broadcasting, stations that would play my songs and would reach 4000/each? That would mean I'd miss the chance to get my music out to 400.000 people that would perhaps buy a CD/download go to our shows, buy a t-shirt etc...
I understand what you're saying. Only thing is that the math is perhaps much less than this. Many of these internet stations don't even reach THAT many people. It's a labor of love. There is just a clutter of too many of these stations. It's sort of like the joke that one day there will be 2,000 television channels with a viewership of 100 each or something.

Since the big stations (at least here in Sweden) only play stuff that are on major labels and/or have been on Idol/TV, the chance of getting on a radio station where some money is earned is almost nil, anyway.
It's like that in the United States as well pretty much. The larger Internet stations will cough up the money to the PROs. This is the first time I've been asked to sign something like this. If they're trying to squirm out of $50/mo. then I'm assuming they're a very small operation and perhaps not worth the effort. Believe me... I've produced custom station ID tags for these people with me identifying myself, and all that, but if they're reaching only a few hundred people, not sure the effort is well spent. Perhaps college radio is better, although that totally depends on one's genre. Again if agreements like these became commonplace, maybe I'd be force to rethink it.
If someone runs a non-profit station but likes my music enough to promote it I have no problems with that without getting paid cause I'm gaining from it in other ways. If someone uses my work to earn money, yes, I want a cut.
Yeah... hard to say. If the REASON people are tuning into a station is the MUSIC, and they sell any banner ads, etc. then seems right that they pay for the music. I should go look at their site and see if they carry any advertising. If they do, I should point that out to them and ask why they are trying to avoid paying PROs.
What's really needed is some regulation prohibiting the big/commercial stations from playing the same damn songs 4 times an hour! That would make more room for more artists to get airplay! ;)
Unfortunately, I have to disagree on principle. We don't need government telling the marketplace what it's allowed to play or not. Although, I do agree that what should happen is some sort of way to lessen the cost of entry to obtain a broadcasters license, so that it's no longer only the domain of mega broadcasters that own multiple stations in the same market.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
FutureLegends
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by FutureLegends »

I hear what you're saying, James. I'm just, to some extent, taking the part of the Devil's advocate here to feul the discussion, which I find interesting.
I'm very much against prohibitions and you're spot on that the licencing fees etc should be lower to make it possible for smaller actors to get in the market. I'm not well-versed in how the radio system works.
At the moment Spotify is HUGE here in Sweden (after all it's from here) and it seems that's where people listen to music these days. I haven't made up my mind what I think about it yet.

Things with ascap/bmi also get a bit more blurred when you're an independent artist playing (mainly) your own compositions I guess.
This was really coming to light this halloween. I organized a show where I also played with my band. So, I was the promotor, the band and the songwriter. If I had followed protocol and reported the show I would have to pay a fee to STIM of somewhere around $730. Of that my guess is that I would get $150 back for my songs and the other band maybe $200. Which would mean I would have to PAY $300 to play my own songs, Rediculous!
Sorry, I'm drifting off-topic...
Hackintosh 6-Core 3.7ghz/32gb ram, macOS Mojave
Hardware: Apollo 8, Apollo 8p, Apollo Twin mkII, MOTU 828mk3 & Original 828 | UA LA-610 | Vanguard V13 Tube Mic | MindPrint En-Voice | Genelec M040AM | Gretsch Guitars & Drums
Software: DP8 | FCPX | Logic Pro X | Play
| EWQL Gypsy, Choirs, Orchestra Gold, VoP | EZDrummer w/ Twizted Kit | Action Strings
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I may be wrong, and I know of one composer who was billed by ASCAP years ago for playing his own classical work, however, I don't think the PROs could really justify billing the owner of the music and get away with it these days. As I said, I may be wrong, but as the owner of the copyright, you control the work. If you don't pay the fee and perform the work, they'd have to take you to court essentially against yourself as your representative. I doubt this would be actionable. The only caveat is if you specifically agreed to insure licensing in such an instance. It may well be that the venue is required to license a public performance and would try to pass that on to you - even for your own music. But in such a case I would simply avoid any such venue.

Again, it is going to rest squarely on your agreement with the SRO and their agreement with the venue. The SRO might make a case that you are acting as a producer, especially if you are performing other represented works. Even so, I would personally resist such collection efforts and fight the "rules" allowing for such nonsensical collection.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
Frodo
Posts: 15597
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: The Shire

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by Frodo »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I may be wrong, and I know of one composer who was billed by ASCAP years ago for playing his own classical work....

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :?

Is there an S missing in ASCAP or.... ?
6,1 MacPro, 96GB RAM, macOS Monterey 12.7, macOS 10.14, DP9.52
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Very observant! They are missing an 'S!' they lent it to BMI who straightened it out, took 10%, and is trying to improve their image by using it as an 'I.'

Iffen they ever join forces they will be known as ASS-BM as I would want nothing to do with it. P & A - well you know 'bout dem, and that little 'C' will go off with anyone. Probably SEA-SACK. I hear he's got a big 'profit margin' if you get my drift.

At least they have access to great wedding photos from that Hussey.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21068
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

Just to revive this thread a little, does ANYBODY know what a typical licensing fee to a small, internet radio station might be from ASCAP, BMI, etc?

Once again, I came across an internet radio station that his hot and bothered to play my material, but told me I need to go through the "submission process." I got to the website and there's a link to a document they need filled out, again releasing them from any licensing fees they'd have to pay a PRO.

For example, here's a quote from the agreement that pretty much encapsulates its purpose:
This agreement allows the broadcast of this material, while eliminating any external licensing requirements of RIAA, Sound exchange, BMI, SESAC, ASCAP, or any other performance rights organizations.
It would certainly serve my needs in the short term, (although I suspect the listenership isn't all that big), but again, unless the fees are onerous, I feel like I'd be betraying other musicians by signing something like this.

I may write to the guy and explain that I'd certainly love to be on his station, but that what he's asking is a problem.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

You should also check with your PRO. I seem to recall something in my BMI agreement that if I relinquish an entity from licensing thru them they could drop me. Hardly seems worth it. Also, if they end up distributing or redistributing to other broadcasters who are licensed, it could be trouble.


Here's my bottom line: I play by the rules. I pay taxes. I pay local and state licensing fees to operate a legitimate business. I expect those PROFESSIONALS I work with to do the same.

Licensing is part of broadcasting. There is no free lunch. I'd walk away from any deal like that. It simply can't pay enough for me to abandon the structure that makes being a writer, composer, or publisher financially feasible.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21068
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

Agreed. I think musicians and creative professionals must stick together against these sorts of things. When I was a kid, I might have gone for something like this and it would have been short sighted and destructive.

Solidarity, brother! :headbang:
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21068
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

What's unfortunate is that the people offering these agreements, for the most part, are well-meaning fans who truly want to help independent artists get their music out. One the one hand they're trying to help. On the other hand, they're asking musicians to contribute to eroding their own intellectual property rights. I've made the point before, that I'm so small time, I stand to neither benefit nor suffer financially either way. But that's not the point.

The ONLY mitigating circumstance I can think of is if ASCAP wants to charge some guy with a "internet radio station" in his bedroom or living room (95% of these stations, I'm convinced) $100-$200 per month or whatever. I would hope that the PROs have a sliding scale or some mechanism to give these little guys a break.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I think you answered my main concern. Fans are not broadcast professionals. It may be well meaning but I assure you, if they are approaching multiple artists they are thinking they can break into broadcasting and make a killing using the www to do it.

I'll leave distribution to the pros, collection to the PROs, and creation to guys like us. Let the fans be fans.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21068
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by James Steele »

I did get a reply on Facebook from someone who runs an internet station. I'm going to try and find out more about the company she mentions and recommend it to other internet stations:
I pay the fee. And all agencies are covered, domestic and international. Depending what route is taken it can fairly inexpensive. No reason why someone can't pay it. If they are financially strapped and can't pay it they are in the wrong business. It can cost as low as $20 or as high as $500 a month. Depends on how it's reported and to how many agencies. The higher end is reporting it yourself to to all the agencies. The lower end is using a company to report for you. It is cheaper b/c they specialize in only that and they get a bulk discount.
I commended her for doing the right thing by musicians.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Internet Radio Station wants me to sign an agreement

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Yep. As long as it's above board and complies with the PRO requests I'm for it!
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
Post Reply