Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 yrs."

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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by SixStringGeek »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:It's not just TV & film that is viable.
Fair enough. But TV & film is about to become the refugee camp for people who are figuring out that the "pop music" industry (I actually think of it as the retail recorded music industry - the only sales channel where the recorded music itself is the product - I classify TV and film as a secondary market since the music is an embellishment to the main product and not sold directly to the consumer).

So the tide of noise will definitely rise and this field will get proportionately harder to work in as well. The second problem I see coming is the constant drive to get more for less. The business world calls this "productivity" and it has been steadily rising to the point that less than the entire population is require to do all the work that needs doing.

This is hitting all segments of the music business. Orchestras are being replaced with samples or even electronica in film and TV. I suppose if we can write and arrange that we might take comfort that at least those jobs are bullet proof. Only this isn't true either. Emily Howell and her progeny threaten to replace composition of accompaniment as well, reducing it to parameterized algorithms. Won't the film industry LOVE that? Not this year, but in a decade?

I wouldn't be surprised if an automated composer that cues off of the film itself analyzing movement and color and composing original "music" that reinforces the visual - possibly with some human input such as selecting among alternative versions didn't arise within a decade.

Recorded music let us multiply our efforts for the last 50 years or so. Now the technology has become widespread enough that it is being used the other way - dividing them.

I'm just musing here but I can see the entire industry - all segments - going up in flames and needing to be reinvented. Live performance is irreplaceable - but even there the performer has to compete against the movies, video games, television, and other forms of entertainment for consumer dollars. There aren't all that many venues. *I myself seldom attend live performances because they're really expensive compared to dinner and a movie and I don't have the free evenings.

*(Although I have tickets to the Brian Setzer Orchestra at the Belly Up on Sunday - a dinosaur of an act if ever there was one - a 17 piece swing band with a guitar slinging front man - so I will come out for something really amazing - but it needs to be amazing).

Also, I just recently read Frank Zappa's autobiography and his highly negative experiences with getting works performed by orchestras and union musicians in general makes the whole performing of new compositions thing sound totally commercially unfeasible. My impression of what can be done in that line is colored by reading that.
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Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 yrs."

Post by James Steele »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Theft is actionable. The glut of noise is not. It's not just TV & film that is viable. Concert music and other live performances also are part of the income pie. Mmmmm.... pie!
And what action can be taken against millions of consumers distributing illegal MP3s, etc. of commercial recordings? Nada. Zip. Nothing. It's over.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

SixStringGeek wrote: But TV & film is about to become the refugee camp for people who are figuring out that the "pop music" industry (I actually think of it as the retail recorded music industry - the only sales channel where the recorded music itself is the product - I classify TV and film as a secondary market since the music is an embellishment to the main product and not sold directly to the consumer).

-and-

I wouldn't be surprised if an automated composer that cues off of the film itself analyzing movement and color and composing original "music" that reinforces the visual - possibly with some human input such as selecting among alternative versions didn't arise within a decade.

I think I saw some software package like that a few years ago. Paid no attention.

As for the "music for picture industry" being a refuge for the pop industry - that's a pretty big leap. It's not like you wake up one day and say: Geez, this pop thing isn't working out, I think I'll write for TV and film. Doesn't really work like that.

There is already a full field of competent composer/producers out there (working and not) who have years and credits, experience, and highly developed skills in those industries. There is no shortage, no gaps to fill. It's not like unemployment in general, where you just go look for another job and it eventually it appears.

That is not to say people shouldn't try, just that they (whoever this "they" is) should be realistic about their expectations and how hard that road might actually be.

@ JS: I agree with you when it comes to the lack of force used in flexing the muscle on copyright ownership - especially by large corporations. I don't know the solution (obviously) but I am not so pessimistic as to believe it's over for the little guy. There is always hope.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by James Steele »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:As for the "music for picture industry" being a refuge for the pop industry - that's a pretty big leap. It's not like you wake up one day and say: Geez, this pop thing isn't working out, I think I'll write for TV and film. Doesn't really work like that.
That doesn't stop them from trying though. Older established artists with name recognition left over from the major label dominated days can still score plenty of gigs with that notoriety. It's not much different than former athletes grabbing up the television sports commentator jobs after retiring... not the guy with the communications degree and more qualified. They'll put an inarticulate jock on the air with a "name" sooner than one of those guys. :(
@ JS: I agree with you when it comes to the lack of force used in flexing the muscle on copyright ownership - especially by large corporations. I don't know the solution (obviously) but I am not so pessimistic as to believe it's over for the little guy. There is always hope.
I wish I could see it. I think spikey said it best that hopefully the market will get so inundated with crap, that something GOOD will actually stand out. But I think the idea of selling recordings is done-- or at least selling enough units to turn any sort of profit-- at least not for indy musicians without a very large, expensive promotional machine behind them. Stick a fork in it. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle on that one unfortunately. :(

One thing thought that I have found intriguing is an article I found (thanks to the wonderful ASCAP email newsletter) about iPad albums. I started a topic on it here and there's a link to the article within it. It seems intriguing that perhaps a multimedia experience could be devised to sort of give consumers that value added feel you got with the larger size LP record that came with liner notes, booklets, sometimes posters.

See this topic:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 6&p=387214" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by David Polich »

I think the issue really boils down to how one personally responds
to anything, including the state of the music business.

I've been working on an album of songs I've written over the last
decade, with the female singer from my old 80's cover band. It started
out as just an exercise in recording, pretty much for the sake of
just doing it. But after awhile we both decided maybe it would be
cool to put a band together to play the songs live - you know, just
for the fun of it. So I put an ad in Craigslist looking for musicians,
35-60, for "band with great songs but no hope of getting signed, no pay."

The response was overwhelming, and long story short, we ended up
with a crackerjack band, some of whom I've known for awhile, others
who had answered the ad. Everybody loves playing together and is
itching to get out and do this. The best thing about the situation
is that no one is participating for anything other than the joy
of playing good music with good musicians. Okay, that and the
lure of those after-gig breakfasts at Denny's.

You can say the business sucks and what's the point of doing music
anymore. Well, the point is the same as it was when you got in your
first band - being in a band is cool!. You thought so when
you were 13 years old. And that was, and still is, the only real valid
reason for making music.

Remember when you saw your first Fender P-bass, or your first Fender
Twin, or first Marshall, or first Hammond or Rhodes, or that first Strat or Les Paul or that first Ludwig kit - you gazed at it and thought, "that's my ticket out". That belief, that faith, as naive as it was, is what propelled you to where you are today. The trouble is so many of us have forgotten
that's where it started.

Maybe the whole problem is that somehow the word "business" got
attached to the word "music". If you're in music to make money you
are in the wrong business altogether. Jimmy Page didn't start playing
because he thought it would lead to a guaranteed job.

It's not time for music to go away. Music will always be worth more
than money. Those who are disillusioned because there's no bling in it
anymore will go do something else and leave a hole to be filled. You
can either step up to that or mutter about how much everything sucks.
Me, I've done enough muttering for a lifetime.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by James Steele »

David Polich wrote:Jimmy Page didn't start playing
because he thought it would lead to a guaranteed job.
Of course not (apart from his session work), but AT LEAST in his day, the possibility existed. The point about doing it for the love of doing is all very good and warm and fuzzy. And nobody's talking about "bling." But at the end of the day, if music really and truly becomes a 100% guaranteed vow of poverty, many intelligent people may choose to pursue other fields they ALSO enjoy that are more lucrative.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by Phil O »

Sorry, David, but I have to strongly disagree. I haven't forgotten for one moment why I got into music, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a respectable form of employment - with a respectable salary. Don't you think there are doctors out there that got into the field because they thought it was "cool" when they were young? (or any other profession for that matter.)

My brother-in-law is a fireman, and a damned good one. He had a huge collection of toy fire trucks as a child and still has them to this day. Should his passion for his profession be a reason to do it for free? I think not.

I have no problem at all with connecting the word business with music. It doesn't take away any of the coolness in my mind (unless, of course, you let it). For me, the true "American dream" is to be able to work in a profession that you're passionate about and make a decent living at it.

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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

David Polich wrote: Maybe the whole problem is that somehow the word "business" got
attached to the word "music". If you're in music to make money you
are in the wrong business altogether.
And as long as there are folks who think like that, there will be folks who also realize that you can make a living by charging for your skills and the latter will make a living. The former will go on being cool on their days off from flipping burgers or houses. Those are reputable jobs as well, but as long as you underestimate your value as an artist, the rest of the world will be happy to indulge your perception of yourself.

Being a professional starts with thinking and acting like one, and that means demanding payment for your services. Once you are known as someone who will give it away, people are happy to pay what you think you are worth, which in this case is nothing. That is not to say that music as a hobby is a wonderful thing, but it is a lot different than music as a way to put a roof over you head and chow on the plate.

"Cool" does not pay the rent. Do you really think players who spend years in college music programs or years honing their skills expect to just get in a cool band? I don't think so.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by Tritonemusic »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:...but as long as you underestimate your value as an artist, the rest of the world will be happy to indulge your perception of yourself.
What a great quote.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by David Polich »

Hey, I didn't mean to imply that no one should be paid for their work
as a musician, producer, mixing engineer, or songwriter. I completely
believe we should be compensated for what we do. Do I think the world
owes me a living? Absolutely not. It's easy to say well we have a right
to demand payment for our services. And on the other side, people have a
right to say they won't pay us what we're asking, they will pay us
what they feel like paying us. And you know what, given the choice between
taking less money and no money, there isn't anyone who won't take less
money.

The thread started out with a quote from Cake's singer, and most replies
here have been on the order of "the business sucks, piracy has taken its
toll" line. While I agree with that premise, I believe it is how you
respond to the current state of the music business that is important.
Throwing up one's hands and bemoaning the situation is one response.
Being proactive and finding avenues around the "way things are" is another.
I could easily say that one of Cake's problems is that they're not really
a good band and their songs aren't great. They might have more success if
they addressed those two simple things.

A positive attitude may seem "warm and fuzzy" and unrealistic. But I'll
guarantee you, there are those who are making a success story of themselves
in music, right now, getting paid for it, who are not being defeated by
the state of the business. My own nephews have a band called Alma Desnuda.
They have already completed a number of cross-country sponsored tours (one
investor bought them their own small tour bus, on the condition that his
company's logo was painted on the sides of the vehicle), they have been
on a sponsored tour to Bali, Hawaii, and Australia, have a large number
of hits on their YouTube videos and recently started their own label.
http://www.almadmusic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes, they're young guys, and maybe not that appealing to us oldsters, but the point is, they have never assumed they couldn't succeed. They live their
band 24/7 and every day wake up thinking up ways to attract more fans.

I just don't see the point of throwing in the proverbial towel and saying
the situation is hopeless and you can't make money in music anymore.
The old model of getting signed, get the advance, release the record, and
sell lots of units no longer applies, that's true. But people still value
good music and will pay to see a good performance or download a track
or a video. It's our job to go find those people, and that boils down again
to promotion.

Everyone I've run across who was in the music business to make a lot of money is now out of the business. And they're all disgusted. Sitting around
being disgusted by it isn't going to change anything. I'm just saying, you
can choose to accept how things are and find your own way around that.

I recall a moment way back during the oil crisis of 1979, when we had to
wait in long lines at gas stations and could only fill up on certain days,
based on our license plate numbers. One morning I saw a kid going from
car to car in a gas station line, selling coffee and donuts to drivers sitting in their cars. He was making money from the situation. That's the kind of thinking that I believe you need in this day and age. When I get
bummed out about how things are, I think of that kid.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

666 wrote:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:...but as long as you underestimate your value as an artist, the rest of the world will be happy to indulge your perception of yourself.
What a great quote.
Thanks. That's one out of 11.6k posts! LOL. Next great quote coming in post # 33,247. OMG, what a sobering thought...
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by SixStringGeek »

David Polich wrote:I could easily say that one of Cake's problems is that they're not really
a good band and their songs aren't great. They might have more success if
they addressed those two simple things.
Except that they topped the Billboard 200 chart while selling the fewest albums ever. So they were the best there is (for that week anyhow) and still weren't selling that well. I don't think we can lay the blame on the quality of their product unless you want to say that nobody is turning out anything all that good (which I suppose is a whole other conversation and premise that I may well agree with).
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

... or simply the best marketed. I suspect 'the best there is' is going to hard to defend. LOL
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by SixStringGeek »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:... or simply the best marketed. I suspect 'the best there is' is going to hard to defend. LOL
Best "product" as "the industry" defines it. Not best music, obviously.

But I think you get my point. I don't think you can pin the low sales on Cake's shortcomings if they've got a #1 record that isn't selling. Nobody else was doing any better. (And I rather like Cake's work).
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I got your point. I was just being difficult. :sorry:
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