Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 yrs."

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johnnytucats
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by johnnytucats »

James Steele wrote: If I'm wrong about what seems to be an obvious assessment, I would truly welcome your setting me straight. :) I can see where they are TRYING to go with it and it might be a good strategy on paper, but the execution and degraded user experience has caused many people I know to flee that place. Again, I'd welcome a little expansion on your comment as I'm not quite sure about the point you're making?
Well, on one hand it hasn't really been around that long. I have been around a while so my "good ol' days" pre-date MySpace by a few years. I'm just old.

Also, it always seemed like chaos to me.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by Spikey Horse »

James Steele wrote:.... I wish I could see something positive. Anybody who has something to throw out there that's a silver lining I'm willing to listen.
The way I see it, the problem is that we are in the middle of a process which has not run its course yet. Several processes in fact.

Personally, I can't wait for music to properly die and become completely worthless. (Spring needs to wait for winter to properly pass before it can start sending its shoots up!)

I can't wait for the day to arrive when some kid will be able to use his latest generation voice recognition iphone app to simply speak out loud his three favourite acts, have the iphone download a bank of genre matching loops, beats and 'production presets', automatically mix him a song, pitch shift/ time strech his already stored phone conversations using intelligent algorithms to create sung/ rapped lyrics about activities he has been involved in over the past week (and chatted over the phone about), then automatically edit, mix and 'produce' the whole thing at which point he can lip sync in front of the iphone's camera and choose from a bunch of background scenes (hot girls, fast cars, waste grounds, abandoned factories, futuristic mega cities etc) and have a finished video ready in 15 minutes - which will then automatically upload to social media sites, to be sold on itunes, and have a ringtone version added to his phone, PLUS it will automatically play on big screens on the wall at any clubs, bars, cafes he visits which runs the latest wi fi enabled customer updated shared playlist technology at which point other people in the venue can rate his track and send comments which he will receive in realtime as he simultaneously films himself listening to his own tune being played in public and sends the footage to all his friends who can also send back feedback and so on....).

I can't wait for this day to arrive because then 'digital music creation' will have become as easy and thus as worthless as whistling or humming a tune while walking down the street. And then we can start to classify it as such and differentiate the worthless side of music creation from other more valued forms of music creativity.

My point is that the problem here is not really about music, it is about music classification.

'Music' has branched out in numerous different (and often 'opposing') directions as recording/ editing/ playback/ internet technologies have been introduced and have advanced. The problem is that the classification(s) / definition(s) of what constitutes 'music' has not really kept pace and not developed to be sophisticated/ accurate/ diverse enough to account for all increasingly divergent uses this new music and information technology now allows for.

No one moans that whistling is 'destroying music' because it is not (generally) categorized as being commercial music and so it is not treated as such (unless you happen to be a very talented - and thus valued - whistler). A similar thing will eventually happen with 'digital music creation'. As we reach the 'anyone can make their own album' singularity music will have to split into much more varied classifications and in doing so VALUE / WORTH will enter the equation again because rarity will be able to exist again within certain classifications (but definitely not all!).

Well it's a theory anyway... :wink:
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Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 yrs."

Post by buzzsmith »

Well written!


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Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 yrs."

Post by James Steele »

Yes, thank you Spikey! That was very thought provoking. I just wish we could get to that point sooner. Hopefully we will become so saturated with BAD music that the good will stand out more.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by mhschmieder »

It's funny, but it's the YOUNGEST musicians I work with (late teens through mid twenties) who complain the most loudly about the state of the "art"! And of course, this is a big reason why they want to work with older, more established musicians.

I try to remind myself that "we've been here before" -- except maybe not this severely. Every time the industry consolidation squeezes the creative artists out of the picture, something bubbles up.

In the mid 60's, it was folk rock and authentic folk (and celtic) revival.

In the mid 70's it was punk rock and then new wave and their offshoots.

In the 90's it was grunge and also singer-songwriter (especially female, and even the surge in country cross-over artists).

Something WILL come along to capture the imagination of a new generation, and I'm already seeing it happen in my own community. The generation coming up right now, seems WAY more interested and motivated to learn instruments and the craft of playing and writing, than the generation that immediately preceded it.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by James Steele »

mhschmieder wrote:Something WILL come along to capture the imagination of a new generation, and I'm already seeing it happen in my own community. The generation coming up right now, seems WAY more interested and motivated to learn instruments and the craft of playing and writing, than the generation that immediately preceded it.
That's cool. But when it does come along, will music consumers PAY for it? Or is it all about selling T-shirts and tickets to live shows from here on? :)
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by mhschmieder »

Well, that's what keeps my company in business, but even we are concerned, as there aren't any up-and-coming artists of recent years who can really drive the tour circuit. You'll note that it's mostly older artists who are hitting the more prestigious venues, where the real money is.

It's hard to say, if one is thinking in traditional terms such as an "album". This is why I picked up Bobby Owsinski's book "Music 3.0", which I hope to start reading during my daily commute this week or next. He does outline ways that he thinks money can be made in the current environment, and ways to grow one's base.

If it's just songs and not albums from now on, if there are ways to get volume up, it may not be such a bad thing (especially if royalties can be collected more reliably, directly, and quickly). But I also see a danger of commissioned music for TV, films, jingles, etc., going away, and not only is this the main focus of many musician's careers, but it is also traditionally a very lucrative cash cow for pop/rock musicians after initial release of material.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by FutureLegends »

James Steele wrote: That's cool. But when it does come along, will music consumers PAY for it? Or is it all about selling T-shirts and tickets to live shows from here on? :)
Maybe not. But then again, maybe the era of selling recorded music was just a fluke. There was only about 40-50 years where that happened (assuming it's over) and in the face of the history of music (and music professionals) that is nothing. Maybe now it's receding back to 'normal'? And we have to deal with it.
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Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 yrs."

Post by James Steele »

Easy to dismiss it as a "fluke" with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I say again, may have been that ANALOG was the best copy protection ever invented. We just didn't know it at the time.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by SixStringGeek »

I blame several factors for the decline of commercial viability of the music business.

First is media consolidation. Radio was the natural marketing arm of the recorded music business, but with the advent of rigid formats and Clear Channel format cloning there is only room for about 200 "big" artists to be on the radio. Our radio is now like our shopping centers. You've got your Jack, Mountain, Alice, etc.....same in every city. DJ's used to be the taste makers, the hip friends that turned the masses on to the next cool thing. That is gone.

I should mention this isn't a particularly new phenomenon. I grew up in Detroit and in the 70's the joke was your band had to have at least one dead member to get on the air there. Lots of Janis Joplin, Hendrix, The Doors, Stones, Beatles, Who......and nothing else. This might be partly why I view the 80's as a golden age of experimentation. Certainly we got a lot of fun new synthesizers then.

Second is the increasing aversion to risk at the labels. Once a record hits, the race is on to put out another record "just like that last big one" which feeds on itself until everything is so triangulated and cross bred that everybody sounds like everybody. This isn't that new - it is how we got the Monkees (America's Beatles) after all.

Third is the greed of the labels themselves. Every new format introduction has been accompanied by a corresponding increase in price despite the fact that manufacturing costs have gone down. $18 CDs vs $7 vinyl pushed music from impulse buy to "thoughtful purchase". The preponderance of albums with 1 or 2 hits and a bunch of obvious filler didn't help. The really good artists didn't do this, but a lot of "new" one hit wonders did.

Fourth is the greed of the labels towards artists - yes they take a risk. But the label profit sharing deal has never been what I would call "equitable". You can't make money with a major without selling a quatrillion records. Recouping costs out of the artist's relatively small royalties shares rather than gross sales is a deal I would expect from Guido the loan shark. I guess we should feel grateful there's no vig too. You end up with people looking at the deal and deciding they can make more money in software or something, thanks. The only reason that worked is because they held monopolies on distribution. Those are gone.

Some bright spots: Pandora is a mixed blessing. It automates what A&R does now. Pick an artist you like and it will find you a dozen more that "sound like them". Frankly I find this evil except you can create a fairly diverse channel by aggregating a group of wildly different artists.

Grooveshark seems to be a mechanism for people to find and talk about new and older music. There are other "music for rent" services coming out where people pay for all they can hear by the month. I am unaware of how the money gets back to the artists via this mechanism as I haven't researched it - but it does get people in the habit of paying to hear music.

MySpace, BTW, is collapsing. It is no longer cool. People are moving to Facebook, Reverbnation, and youtube channels (Pomplamoose seems to do well here).

It is definitely a new game with artists like Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails severing ties with the majors and developing new business models and independent acts like Arcade Fire on indie Merge Records actually winning a Grammy.

Things are pretty chaotic - I think people are just gonna have to get all Gene Simmons and learn merchandising if they want to make money.
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I wish people wouldn't paint such broad strokes when talking about "the music industry" when they mean the commercial pop industry (including all rock, rap, metal, some jazz, etc).

Of course I know people who are playing less and struggling to make their mark. But I probably know as many (likely more) people who are making a living as a musician/composer/arranger/performer. The latter group (also the latte group) tend to have a classical slant and a bit more training and/or more broad experiences making music than their more causal counterparts.

I'm not saying (not even just sayin') that those who pick up a reasonably simple instrument to play (at least on the surface) such as guitar, drums, bass, simple keyboards, or voice can't bring a high level of skill to the instrument. Clearly, they can. Then again, limiting oneself to "what one knows" (I carefully avoided the word self-taught here as I am) is... well, limiting.

I think there is a difference between how you can define musicians:

Vocalist as opposed to Singer.
Drummer v. Percussionist.
Guitar player v. Guitarist.
Keyboard player v. Pianist.
Songwriter v. Composer.
Producer v. Arranger.

On the surface, you might think the group on the left were the "specialists" when in fact, often they don't specialize at all. More often they are more accurately one-trick-ponies who either aren't willing, able, or motivated enough to break out of their own box. Many from that group have made a TON of money and created incredible work. Others see this and think it's relatively easy. It's NOT. But still, there is a glut of noise in the marketplace and amidst the noise, having your voice heard is next to impossible. I understand that.

Survival as a professional "in the music industry" (and by that I simply mean financially surviving as a musician - period) is often about flexibility. If all your eggs are in the live-band-and/or-sell-recordings-and-merchandise basket, yeah, you're in a bit of a bind right now. But keep in mind that that is not the music industry. It is where much of the money is/was but there is also a very big world out there, and there are many ways to skin that pussy cat.

meow!

And then there is this:

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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by Phil O »

Sixstring, I agree with everything you've said, but I do believe that the single biggest threat to the music industry is theft. We face a future where record sales will no longer be a viable source of income, and for many this will be devastating. Record sales has been central to the music business for quite some time now and that business model is coming to an end. For many of us, a new business model is key to our future and we need it fast.

MLC, I think the safest jobs right now are those that are connect with film/TV. Composers (and I include ad jingle writers) and arrangers do not depend on record sales directly. But, I do believe that eventually film will face similar losses due to DVD theft (if they haven't already), and that will have an impact on arrangers/composers as well. Just sayin. :roll:

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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Theft is actionable. The glut of noise is not. It's not just TV & film that is viable. Concert music and other live performances also are part of the income pie. Mmmmm.... pie!
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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by Phil O »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Theft is actionable. The glut of noise is not. It's not just TV & film that is viable. Concert music and other live performances also are part of the income pie. Mmmmm.... pie!
I like pie. 8)
As far as theft being actionable, enforcement is yet another discussion. :?

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Re: Cake singer: music will be "really great hobby in 5-10 y

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Indeed, it is!
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