Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Digital Perfomer in the context of television/film scoring and post-production.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for discussion related to the use of Digital Perfomer in the context of television and film scoring and post-production.
Scorer
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by Scorer »

Hi guys,

I'm beginning to do some MIDI work, running DP9 on Win 8.1 x64.

I have a few questions regarding basic workflow that I can't seem to figure out:

(1) Automation of Continuous Data on MIDI tracks

For whatever reason, I cannot write automation of continuous data to a MIDI track. I can edit the continuous data manually in the MIDI Editor, but if I simply want to run a separate pass on a section (MIDI notes are already played in) and just write automation of certain CC controllers while the timeline is playing, nothing is recorded.

In the Seq Editor, the track is play enabled and record enabled. I've added the CC that I want to automate. That CC is chosen in the select menu. I've tried every automation mode (touch, overwrite etc).

The VI is sitting in Kontakt 5 in VEPro. I've tried to move the knob (of a VI parameter) with the mouse and via my MIDI keyboard (which controls certain knobs via MIDI learn), but again no automation is recorded while the timeline is playing.

If I actually fully record to the MIDI track, the CC continuous data is now recorded, but then my notes are wiped out/overwritten. (I need to do separate passes, cannot handle all CC data while playing the notes.)

I must add that my MIDI keyboard is only sending MIDI data to Kontakt if the MIDI track is fully record enabled. Is that normal or do I have an incorrect MIDI setup ?


(2) Recording the Initial Value of a CC

I'm referring to the continuous data for a specific CC that is set in the VI to a specific value, but not being animated while you record. That value never makes it into DP. If you later want to automate this CC, you start from scratch with an empty automation lane w/o the initial value that the VI was used when the notes were recorded.

I've read in the manual that DP does not record the initial, static MIDI CC data.

Is there any way to get this done or how are you guys adding the initial value to the automation lane ?


(3) Event List

Is it possible to filter the Event List to just show one specific event type ?


(4) Seq Chunks/ AUX tracks / Songs

I've read that in the past it was recommended to move AUX tracks into a V-Rack because if the seq chunks contained AUX tracks and were used to assemble a song, the AUX tracks would basically cause an "overload".

Is that still the case with DP 9.12 ?

I love to separate out AUX tracks into containers like V-Racks etc but since u cannot automate an AUX within a V-Rack that makes no sense to me...

how are you guys using the individual seq chunks to create songs ? how are you handling your AUX tracks ?

if you are creating a longer seq from two smaller sub-seq chunks - both containing the same AUX tracks - what happens to these AUX tracks once the sequences get merged ?

Thanks !
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4600
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by stubbsonic »

Scorer wrote: (1) Automation of Continuous Data on MIDI tracks

For whatever reason, I cannot write automation of continuous data to a MIDI track.
If you assign an actual MIDI CC to the parameter in the VI, and record the MIDI CC (like a pedal, or a wheel, or a slider) into your MIDI track, it should work. It might not work to simply work a knob in the VI while you are in record. (It's not clear what you are doing from your post).

You could be able to merge record your CC into the track with the notes. (There's an icon in the transport window for merge/overdub mode).
Scorer wrote: (2) Recording the Initial Value of a CC
What you describe is normal behavior. DP won't record static values for all VI parameters. Those settings are set within the VI's preset, so you should be able to load and save your VI preset and have that set those initial values. If you want to get an initial value for a VI parameter, I guess would need to set up a CC and assign it to the parameter, but you shouldn't need to-- unless you were expecting to automate after that. If you need to make sure the value is right when you hit play, you might want to read about "Chasing" in the f'n manual.

I don't ever put the initial value into the automation late, so I can't answer your question.
Scorer wrote: (3) Event List

Is it possible to filter the Event List to just show one specific event type ?
In the SETUP menu, there is a VIEW FILTER... in there there is an EVENT LIST tab where you can set the view filter.

Scorer wrote:
(4) Seq Chunks/ AUX tracks / Songs

I've read that in the past it was recommended to move AUX tracks into a V-Rack because if the seq chunks contained AUX tracks and were used to assemble a song, the AUX tracks would basically cause an "overload".

Is that still the case with DP 9.12 ?

I love to separate out AUX tracks into containers like V-Racks etc but since u cannot automate an AUX within a V-Rack that makes no sense to me...

how are you guys using the individual seq chunks to create songs ? how are you handling your AUX tracks ?

if you are creating a longer seq from two smaller sub-seq chunks - both containing the same AUX tracks - what happens to these AUX tracks once the sequences get merged ?
That's a good question. I think depending on how many sequences you have and how hard you are pushing the CPU, you might be able to get away working as you do. I don't do much automation in that way, so I haven't had to deal with it much. I'm hoping you get a response to this question, as I'm curious what the standard protocol is when you want to use automation on something that doesn't have a track to automate. You can use MIDI CC's in your MIDI tracks for automation that way, but that doesn't seem ideal.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
Scorer
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by Scorer »

stubbsonic, thanks for your input !

re (1) - alright here's what I'm doing, pretty simple:

> record MIDI notes to MIDI track, just notes only no CC continuous data yet

> I then wanna run another pass on that same region, and now record automation for continuous data for these notes - same as you can do with volume automation etc: you simply automation record enable the track, play the track back, and then ride faders/knobs/modwheel to insert continuous data

==> this does NOT work for me - no CC data is written when I try this.

I can manually edit the CC data in the MIDI editor, but I cannot write via automation in a separate pass. This only works for me when I actually fully record to the track and write notes and CC data at the same time. Since I'm not a good keyboard player and there are too many CC anyways, I want to alter the data after the fact, via automation, not just tedious manual edit.

re (2) - yes, naturally I would only do this if automation is needed. Problem is one cannot tell the exact value from a knob inside the VI to have a start-off point. The manual actually advises to do exactly what I'm asking here for (DP 9.12 user guide, page 812, "Making the transition to an automated mix"), but since (1) is not working for me I cannot get this done (other then a manual insert, which requires to know the exact CC value).

"Chasing" only comes into play after at least one value is set for a CC.

re (3) - that was what I was looking for !

Thanks !
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4600
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by stubbsonic »

For recording CC's, I'd suggest you check the input filter to make sure that data type is enabled. It's just below View Filter.

Also, as you said that notes are being erased when you record CC data, did you make sure you had Merge/Overdub on? You didn't mention that in your response.

Also, you didn't mention if the knobs/faders/modwheel are physical controls on your controller (and not within the VI).

As a test, you could create a duplicate track of your MIDI track (with the same channel & VI assigned to the output) and record the CC info onto that track.

Hopefully someone with more familiarity with this workflow will chime in.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
Scorer
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by Scorer »

INPUT FILTER is set to record all CC. Using Overdub did not help.

I've tried using the knobs on my keyboard (attached to the controls) and turning the knobs directly via mouse within the VI - same result.

Update:

I narrowed down the problem. This seems to be a "communication issue" with Kontakt 5, when doing these separate automation record passes for CC data.

I found that I can write automation for continuous CC data to the MIDI track in separate passes, IF (!) the MIDI CC is hooked up to a control within DP, e.g. Volume CC7, which is controlled by the fader for the MIDI track within DP.

But once the MIDI CC is hooked up to a control setting (knob etc) inside of Kontakt, the automation data is not being written to the MIDI track (when doing separate passes), although I can see the knob turning inside of Kontakt, unless I am in full record mode (recording notes and CC data at the same time).

I've tried this (recording automation in separate passes) with a direct instance of Kontakt within DP as well as an instance of Kontakt within VEPro - same result. The controls are affected but the corresponding CC data is not being written to the MIDI track when doing separate automation recording passes.

Odd enough, when I set automation mode to OVERWRITE, the correct CC data is still not being written, but at the beginning of the region, (independent of the CC in use) an UNMUTED event is placed, a CC10 event is recorded @ 64 as well as a CC7 event @ 127.

Any idea what else I can try ?
User avatar
terrybritton
Posts: 1117
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:45 am
Primary DAW OS: Windows
Location: Elizabeth City, NC
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by terrybritton »

SOME of this behavior may be uniquely a Kontakt problem. They have a forum where you can also pose this question which may yield better results from a larger user-pool. Since Kontakt is actually a host itself acting as a container for multiple VSTs, it will have oddball characteristics.

https://www.native-instruments.com/foru ... ontakt.33/

The way knobs work at all in Kontakt is via the automation resources it (or any plugin) exposes, so I'm not at all sure why it is managing to keep those changes from the DAW. What controller are you using? The Komplete Kontrol series poses some unique challenges with DP (one needs to always be in Multi-Record mode) but it does not sound like you are using one of those S-Series keyboards. In which case, it certainly should not be misbehaving like this!

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4600
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by stubbsonic »

There is an Automation Setup Window in the SETUP menu. Might be some useful setting in there.

In the PROJECT menu there's a thing down there at the bottom called consoles which is a little arcane. It allows you to assign MIDI controllers to sliders that control things in DP. I wonder if that might be a bridge toward where you want to go.

I was hoping someone more qualified in this area would chime in. I don't use these features very much.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
Scorer
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by Scorer »

@ terry: MIDI keyboard is a Roland A-800Pro

odd thing is, that when in full record mode, notes and any CC is recorded normally. It's just the automation record passes that only do Track Mute, CC7 & CC10.

@ stubbsonic: I tried the console setup... no luck

the Automation Setup window is set up correctly, everything is enabled. Funny thing is that on the left side, under MIDI it only lists : Volume, Pan, Track Mute. Which is exactly the 3 controls that I am able record automation for (in separate passes).

Maybe those are the only ones available for CC automation recording... ?

OTOH, in full record mode one can record any CC so this would be rather a limitation of DP and not reflect what is doable in general with VIs in Kontakt...

Thanks !
User avatar
HCMarkus
Posts: 9712
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:01 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Rancho Bohemia, California
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by HCMarkus »

I always create a separate Controller Track with the same MIDI destination for adding CC that is not recorded simultaneously with the original performance.

Benefit: much easier to edit CC without all those pesky notes in the way. :lol:
Scorer
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by Scorer »

okay, I got help by somebody over at the VI control forum and I finally got this to work - stubbsonic I think you were pointing earlier at the same thing, I just wasn't getting it.

Using Overdub with DP in full record mode can be used to just write additional CC data to the MIDI track.

What I tried to do is what the manual states, page 804 DP 9.12 manual:
-----------------------------------------
RECORDING AUTOMATION
Automation data can be recorded in real time during playback. To do so, enable the automation record button for the track you wish to record (as shown in Figure 68-7), and choose the desired mode (Overwrite, Touch, Latch, etc.) You do not need to put Digital Performer into record mode to record automation. Just start playback and adjust volume, pan, plug-in settings, send levels, and mutes as desired during playback.

The automation data is recorded directly into the track, replacing existing automation data of the same kind, if any.
-----------------------------------------

I guess it doesn't work with Kontakt.

Thanks everybody !
User avatar
daniel.sneed
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by daniel.sneed »

Just my 2 cents, Scorer:
To help make it clear, in automation context, I would not call MIDI controllers in Kontakt *plugin settings*.
To me, *plugin settings* in that context refers to mixing plugin settings only. Such as delay feed-back, eq frequencies, and the like.

So, my understanding is, instruments values inside Kontakt do not fit the *record while play back* behavior.

Then, as Stubbsonic suggested, MIDI *Overdub* seems to be the best answer.
dAn Shakin' all over! :unicorn:
DP11.31, OS12.7.4, MacBookPro-i7-3.1Ghz-16GoRam-1ToSSD
Falcon, Kontakt, Ozone, RX, Unisum & Michelangelo, LX480
Waldorf Iridium & STVC & Blofeld, Kemper Profiler Stage, EWIusb, Studiologic VMK, ControlPad
JBL4326+4312sub, Behringer X32rack
Many mics, mandolins, banjos, guitars, flutes, melodions, xylos, kalimbas...
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4600
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by stubbsonic »

HCMarkus's suggestion to record CC's to a separate track with the same destination is also pretty useful. However, you'll need to be aware if you cut & paste to take both tracks with you, and also that sometimes some "dregs" can be left over in the previous locations.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
Scorer
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by Scorer »

stubbsonic wrote:HCMarkus's suggestion to record CC's to a separate track with the same destination is also pretty useful. However, you'll need to be aware if you cut & paste to take both tracks with you, and also that sometimes some "dregs" can be left over in the previous locations.
so what would be a scenario where writing MIDI CC data to separate tracks (same destination) would be useful ?

For organization purposes, I can view each automation in a separate automation lane but would not have to deal with even more MIDI tracks...

trying to understand other workflows here, since I'm just starting out...
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4600
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by stubbsonic »

It would allow you to do edits on notes and CC info separately (if needed) streamlining the selection from the tracks overview, for example.

It would also allow you to turn off the automation and hear just the notes pretty easily.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
Scorer
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Re: Seeking Advice of DP Experts

Post by Scorer »

stubbsonic wrote:It would allow you to do edits on notes and CC info separately (if needed) streamlining the selection from the tracks overview, for example.

It would also allow you to turn off the automation and hear just the notes pretty easily.
okay, I will keep that in mind - does not make too much sense right now with my limited experience

currently I'm mostly editing CC in the MIDI editor in the lower pane, so CC data is separated from the notes, and I can turn off automation for any track by simply disabling automation playback (there is a dedicated button)
Post Reply