Chunks & Song for film scoring

Digital Perfomer in the context of television/film scoring and post-production.

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profdraper
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Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by profdraper »

Hi all,
I'm a relative newcomer to DP8 but am very familiar with a range of DAWs on the mac OS platform. I was drawn to DP because of the insistance of composer friends over the years as to DP's excellent features for film music. I must say, thus far I have been a little taken aback with the numerous bugs, inconsistencies and screen re-draw issues in 8.02 but I imagine these will be sorted out in due course.

I am presently in the completion stages of music for a short film. Creating sequences /chunks /V rack and mixers has certainly been useful: each Cue can have its own tempo, length and arrangement, then dropped in as cues across the Song timeline to locked Markers (although one has to be extremely vigilant as to the status of each of the consolidated window panes which do often not perform /sync as advertised, eg: the Song window does not Scroll; floating video window crashes DP etc).

In any case, perseverence has paid off - to a point. This last issue however has me stumped and I wonder if anyone may be able to advise or shed any light as to what is going on? –>

Because Song mode is rather limited in terms of editing or bouncing to track /disk, the final step is to print to a new sequence. Fine, but in this bounce all of my •locked* Song markers /film cues are placed at other positions in the new sequence conductor track, along with corresponding out of sync regions. Throughout every component cue /sequence, tracks have been locked (I even user time stamped every region on a subsequent pass). The Song plays perfectly locked to video, but on repeated attempts to covert to a new sequence the same thing happens when locked markers and regions are shifted in time irrespective of what woud appear to be the same cloned conductor tempi.

I don't get it. It could well be just another bug, but then again, user error may also be the case (despite much RTFM and rather basic pop music-oriented training videos). I am also aware that some prefer to avoid Song mode for film work, and perhaps this may be related (ie, doesn't work properly when dealing with tempo /cue /meter independence?). Some composers bounce stereo chunk cues then reassemble in a new sequence etc. However, with V-Racks and the flexibility to overdub, fine edit and mix stems until the last stages, it would be useful to see if Song mode could indeed work 'as advertised'.

A mystery to me. Any advice greatly appreciated.
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profdraper
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by profdraper »

Oops, apologies for the typo, should read DP 8.01 of course.
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nk_e
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by nk_e »

I don't have enough experience with chunks to answer your question, but if I may make a suggestion: Eli Krantzberg covers using chunks and the song window for video in his DP8 advanced tutorials at Groove3. I recall that he makes the point that chunks don't necessarily end when you think they might by looking at the song window...or something to that effect. I'm sorry I can't remember, but I do remember it was an "a ha" moment when he said it. Anyway, I believe it's still on sale over at groove3 for about $20 so you may want to check it out. He also covers chunks in his DP8 explained video and he did it in a way that I finally "got it".

The links are below in my sig. I'm not affiliated with Eli or Groove3 in anyway; I just think these tutorials are great.

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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by frankf »

I don't use the Song chunks, but the first thing I do when I get a new reel is to load the audio into a Sequence chunk called "Spotting"and associate the movie file with it, then spot each cue in the reel using markers. I then create a selection from these markers for each cue and create a new sequence from each, giving me a separate sequence for each cue. I then work on each cue in its own sequence. When I have a rough (or final) mix of the cue, I then drag it's Soundbite into the Spotting sequence, Move to Time Stamp command to get it in place, bounce to QuickTime and send to director. I do this for each cue in the reel and end up with a Master sequence (the aforementioned Spotting sequence with audio in sync with video plus dialogue and effects tracks from the original movie audio input. That's it in a nutshell. There are several details to these steps, but you get the idea, I hope.
Frank

Just to be clear regarding an often misunderstood concept in DP,:
DP has 3 types of Chunks that appear in the Chunks Window
-Sequences
-v racks
-songs

I'm referring to the Sequence chunk type above


Frank Ferrucci
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MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Don't place the chunks end to end in the Song window. Stack the VERTCALLY. Just drag the chunk to UNDER the previous one. Then you can FLATTEN the chunks into a single new sequence. If tracks have EXACTLY the same name, they will be merged into a track with that name. Again, the key is stacking vertically, otherwise the new sequence (available to create from the drop down in the upper right triangle) won't work.

I hope I answered what you're asking.
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profdraper
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by profdraper »

Thanks everyone - what a nice, helpful community - and so quick to respond with detailed suggestions. Much appreciated (from Australia). I did a little more work on this last night & am fairly convinced now that this may be a bug - have detailed this with MOTU tech support. Will await what they say with interest (shall also upload the file today).

To respond to your thoughtful comments:

nk_e: Yes, have seen many of the Eli Krantzberg videos. He's very good irrespective of topic. In the groove 3 DP8 series he does cover elements of this, but not at any depth concerning some of the elements of film scoring – in relation to multiple tempi, accelerando /de-accelerandos etc which my pieces incorporate (and which I think seem to have a bearing on this problem). eg, in the case of fixed tempi and even bar lengths, the merge to sequence function seems to work as expected. Most training seems to take this approach re. conventional pop music assembly rather than 'free' music.

frankf: thanks! Yes am aware of some alternate assembly techniques (and very similar to what I have used in Pro Tools or Logic). However, if one wanted to bounce out stems I could do this just as easily on any of these other platforms which behave more consistently and reliably (especially Tools for example). In the case of DP & Song mode what I really wanted to make use of is 'keeping the balls in the air' by leaving the sequences, mixes, additional editing and/or new linear overdubs to the last minute. Some of these addittions might then extend across cues, while a complete final mix consistency could be achieved where I normally re-route a number of stereo auxs OTB. These then to recorded back to the DAW as stems, then to full length stereo or 5.1 masters as required. However, I take your points - Shall try to work some more on this today, say via clippings, master cue sequence etc. The difference is that I want multitrack cues, not stereo bounces.

MIDI Life Crisis (great sig!): I don't see that stacking Chunks under one another does what I need. This would make chucks play in parallel or at least overlap. In this particular piece I have kept matters quite conventional where cues /sequences simply play one after the other in time - each spotted to what I'd thought to be a locked marker against video timecode. The problem is that when merging these chunks to sequence, the locked markers shift position, and followed by upset cues. Track naming isn't really an issue at this point in time.

Thanks again everyone. Will keep at it. The muti-sequence /mix /VR capacities are certainly attractive.
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profdraper
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by profdraper »

Got it & resolved. Entirely counter-intuitive (to my mind):

To have a successful Song 'merge chucks to sequence' operation **all Song marker locks and all Seq track locks must be off**. Then all performs as expected.

Previously I had religiously locked all of these thinking that timcode hits and region locations should perserve their integrity. This proved to be exactly the opposite - the merge chuck feature placed regions & hits out of sync.

So, locking is useful for working off the cues individually, but when merging chunks to a new seq, temporarily turn everything off, check the new seq bounce & lock everything again if required.

I tired a number of other ways around the problem before discovering this solution (by accident; and the DP manual never mentions locking in terms of the song bounce, perhaps notable by its absence?). All other methods required quite a lot of double handling - new mixers, re-instantiating plugins, automation etc.

The brilliant bonus of the Song 'merge to chuck feature' (once working) - is that all automation, composite conductor track, region fades, plugin-is and V rack come across. Exactly what I wanted, and now can simply add and tweak to the entire sound track as takes the fancy, then to bounce.

Thanks again - hope this helps someone else.
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Seems counter intuitive. Thanks for posting the solution.
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by leigh »

profdraper wrote:Thanks again - hope this helps someone else.
This helps me immensely in a project I'm starting. I was suspecting something about the locks and this makes it very clear. Thank you!

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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by nk_e »

Wow. Welcome to the community. Looking forward to your participation....!

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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by mesayre »

I just now had a bunch of trouble with merging these things, and your suggestion (unlocking markers before merge) fixed it. After about an hour and a half of me gnashing my teeth, of course.

Does anyone happen to know why this is the case? As a couple of you noted it does seem rather counterintuitive.

Could it be this way because it must be if you are using a different movie for each sequence you're merging into the song, each of which would have a different set of timecode?

In any case, got it working now - thanks for the fix.

Cheers,
Mike
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by Stuartfox »

I find chunks and vracks invaluable for my work. I've been scoring tv doccumentries for the last 3 years or so solidly.

I use them a bit differently to you though.

I have one master video file with time code,
Right click on the sequence in the seq list pane and set the time code start

When I bounce each cue, I mane the file with the time code point the wav wile starts at.

End result, a folder with individual mastered cues all with a file mane like this:

00-10-08-00-mountain-flyover.wav

I drag these files to Final Cut Pro at the end of the day and share an I progress video with myself (for the tv away from the studio) and the production team for notes.

And at the end before the dub, I drag all the files into a simple mastering projects check through one last time and bounce one big end to end file.

After experimenting with many different approaches, this workflow has proved to be pretty efficient and stable for the tight deadlines and constant edit changes I have to deal with.

I keep she song window out of the picture.

Just thought I'd share my workflow.
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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by frankf »

Have you tried bouncing/exporting your mix to Quicktime directly from DP? Works for me.


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Re: Chunks & Song for film scoring

Post by tigerlad »

Hi,
This is message for Profdraper.

Thank you for your thoughts on the issue, I have been trying to resolve the issue on my own for about a week now, tried what you suggested, i.e. turning off all the locks before merging. Whilst that might have worked for your specific project, depending on the number of tempo changes you might have had, it did not work for mine. The reason there is no reference to turning off the locks before merging in the manual is because that is not necessary!

Here is what the problem about shifting markers is:( I go through step by step process involved and stress on the issue:)

1. Create a bunch of chunks , with each chunk having as many tempo changes as you wish.
2. Go to the Song window.( IMPORTANT: viewing Song Windown does not necessarily mean it's activated, the Song Window is properly activated when the Play button next to it, in the chunk window, is pressed, see below for further information)
3. Choose the first chunk( with Play button of that chunk activated I mean!)
4. Go to the mini menu of the Song Window and choose Insert Calumn for this first chunk, I would choose Frame and Measure so that it would be easier to locate the column related to each Chunk.
5. ***IMPORTANT**** once you have inserted this first chunk into it's related column , you MUST make sure that the Song Chunk in the Chunks List is activated.
6. ***Super IMPORTANT*** you MUST then go to the mini menu of the Song Window and press Copy Conductor Tracks!! This means that , for each chunk you are inserting into the Song Window, you ABSOLUTELY MUST choose Copy Conductor Track in the mini menu individually. In other words, you should not wait until you have inserted all the chunks before you chose Copy Conductor Tracks. This is the big BUGG of the Song window.
7. You should repeat the above every time you insert a new chunk.
8. once you have inserted all your chunks into the Song Window( with individual copy conductor track for each chunk) you must make sure that the Song Chunk in the Chunks list is activated before merging your chunks into a sequence. If you do then everything will work precisely.

I have tested above with my all of my markers locked. The number of hit points in my project is quite large. I am only working with MIDI/Virtual instrument not Audio. What PROFDRAPER suggested might work with Audio. I do not know, but the steps I suggested above resulted into a successful merge of my chunks with complete sync between the music and picture.

Anyway, I hope this helps. If you want me to provide further explanation , then please let me know. I have been spending the last week only on this issue, day and night. I hope DP engineers also see this. There are two solutions I would like to propose:

1. Once someone is viewing the Song Window then the Window must be assumed as ACTIVE. It's a bit misleading right now; for instance, if someone insert a chunk into the Song window(meaning the chunk is active) and tries to copy conductor tracks for that chunk then DP interface allows that , but DP ONLY calculate the math behind this ONLY when the Song Chunk in the Chunks list is activated, not the cue(chunk) itself.

2. It should be possible for a user to wait until he/she has inserted all the Chunks before pressing on Copy Conductor Tracks. Whilst this might be possible right now for projects with minimal tempo change( or projects other than music for picture) , the Copy Conductor Tracks only works precisely when this option is repeated individually for each chunk.

Thanks guys,
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