Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Digital Perfomer in the context of television/film scoring and post-production.

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kdm
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Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by kdm »

Hello,

I am considering adding DP8 to my rig for scoring as an addition to PT 10 (Sibelius, slave systems, etc), but haven't found any answers online/tutorials/tips to some more advanced workflow questions I have, and there is no demo or manual online or this would be easy for me to answer on my own. (Pardon my terminology possibly being more PT based than DP; and for reference, I use x-keys and a Euphonix controller for customized setups, shortcuts, etc).

1 - Can one setup key commands/layouts to show/hide sections of tracks?

I know DP is rather configurable (key commands, layouts), so I'm hoping this is possible. What I find handy in PT is to setup, for example, Violins 1, 2, etc, brass, winds, perc tracks, etc in different show/hide memory locations so I can quickly narrow down the 200+ track template as needed. Folders don't serve the same purpose, or work as quickly for the way I work.

2 - Is there a key command option to open, or select the MIDI editor tab with the current selected clip/object (I've been looking for the key command list to see what is assignable, but no luck yet)? As an alternative, key commands for switching window layouts such that one could focus on the MIDI editor vs. sequence, etc?

3 - Can one assign multiple MIDI (and audio) track outputs/destinations in one go? PT allows us to use modifier kc's to send all selected to one destination, all tracks, or to even cascade assignments (such as MIDI channels 1-16 of a VI or VEPro instance/port to 16 consecutive tracks - super fast for setting up or revising a large template).

4 - Any chance DP has destructive record a la PT? Not expecting this to be the case, just curious. I've never found it mentioned anywhere.

5 - How is DP with VEPro 4/5? Any issues to be aware of that might limit instances, port configs, etc?

6 - Probably basic, but are there key command options to show/select various cc controller views or lanes? I found a video where a DP user had assigned macros to do something like this, but it may have been using a general OSX macro layer (Quickeys?), not DP's own kc's(that's fine, but may or may not work on PC/Win7 the same way, or may simply be too cumbersome).

7 - Is there any speed performance lag with large numbers of tracks and any global fuctions, such as tempo editing, GUI, etc? There shouldn't be, but PT10 introduced a bug where this has become a significant issue with large MIDI track projects, so it's worth checking just to be sure.

Thank you very much for any input, at least to satisfy my curiosity until DP8 is out and I can give it a try (or find a local DP7 user to query).
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I'll try since no one else has jumped in yet...
kdm wrote: 1 - Can one setup key commands/layouts to show/hide sections of tracks?
I don't think you understand how tracks are laid out in DP. There is the Tracks Overview window and double clicking on a track takes you to the graphic view (or sequence editor or event list, depending on your preferences). You can add whatever tracks you like to view from there. A key command. Not that I am aware of.
kdm wrote:2 - Is there a key command option to open, or select the MIDI editor tab with the current selected clip/object (I've been looking for the key command list to see what is assignable, but no luck yet)? As an alternative, key commands for switching window layouts such that one could focus on the MIDI editor vs. sequence, etc?
There are built in commands to call up various windows and you can change those to your preferred commands. Again, double clicking on MIDI or audio data will take you to an editor you set in the preferences file.
kdm wrote:3 - Can one assign multiple MIDI (and audio) track outputs/destinations in one go? PT allows us to use modifier kc's to send all selected to one destination, all tracks, or to even cascade assignments (such as MIDI channels 1-16 of a VI or VEPro instance/port to 16 consecutive tracks - super fast for setting up or revising a large template).
Setting up large templates is very easy using the ADD TRACKS commands. You can indicate how many instances of a VI or MIDI instrument you want, how many tracks should be assigned to it, and it you want them included in a new folder of not. I believe you can set a new key command to do this.
kdm wrote:4 - Any chance DP has destructive record a la PT? Not expecting this to be the case, just curious. I've never found it mentioned anywhere.
Destructive record? Yes. there is overdub mode (to add to a recording) or you can defeat that and overwrite the recording. I think in audio recording, the original will remain but become "unused" and you can delete all unused audio from the "soundbites" window.
kdm wrote:5 - How is DP with VEPro 4/5? Any issues to be aware of that might limit instances, port configs, etc?
I don't use, VEPro, I use Plogue Bidule, but I see no reason there should be a limit. With DP going 64 bit in ver 8, hosting outside DP may be a non-issue as long as you have a fast machine and a lot of RAM.
kdm wrote:6 - Probably basic, but are there key command options to show/select various cc controller views or lanes? I found a video where a DP user had assigned macros to do something like this, but it may have been using a general OSX macro layer (Quickeys?), not DP's own kc's(that's fine, but may or may not work on PC/Win7 the same way, or may simply be too cumbersome).
DP's Commands Window is quite extensive. Pretty much most of what you can do in DP can be assigned without Quickeys of the Mac interface. I prefer QK as I like to link various commands.
kdm wrote:7 - Is there any speed performance lag with large numbers of tracks and any global fuctions, such as tempo editing, GUI, etc? There shouldn't be, but PT10 introduced a bug where this has become a significant issue with large MIDI track projects, so it's worth checking just to be sure.
I haven't had a GUI or CPU impact in that area of DP since ver 4.5 as I recall.

[/quote]
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kdm
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by kdm »

Thanks for the reply!
MIDI Life Crisis wrote: I don't think you understand how tracks are laid out in DP. There is the Tracks Overview window and double clicking on a track takes you to the graphic view (or sequence editor or event list, depending on your preferences). You can add whatever tracks you like to view from there. A key command. Not that I am aware of.
You are correct - I'm not very familiar with DP's layout, so I appreciate the input; though, I did know about the double click option - most DAWs have the double click/editor assignment option (notation, key editor, or drum editor usually).

I'm referring to a possibly ProTools-unique feature that allows you to select any number of tracks, and hide them from the track view (sequence in DP) by assigning them to a memory location that can recall not just track show/hide assignments, but zoom, markers, etc (absolutely killer feature - for one example: you could even have a marker setup for a section of a song, say, the chorus, and when you locate to that marker, only show the vocal tracks while recording, then change it for final mixdown).

This also makes it much easier to manage a large score template; rather than having 300 tracks always visible vertically and having to constantly scroll up and down to get to violins 1, or trumpets, etc, I can focus on one group of tracks at a time for writing, tracking, editing, etc. I have 24 or so key commands setup on an X-keys to recall corresponding memory locations in PT, each with a section of the track list set to "show" and the rest hidden from view.

I'm now wondering if the track group feature has any options that might work along with window sets to accomplish the same thing - note that mix/edit groups won't work - only if "groups" can be simplified to only be a group of tracks shown in the sequence - no linked faders, edits, etc as in traditional edit/mix groups.
Setting up large templates is very easy using the ADD TRACKS commands. You can indicate how many instances of a VI or MIDI instrument you want, how many tracks should be assigned to it, and it you want them included in a new folder of not. I believe you can set a new key command to do this.
It sounds like part of the process may be easy enough to manage. Just for example, PT allows you to simply select a range of tracks and cascade-assign MIDI port/channels, or send all to a single destination, bus, send, etc - super fast for setting up a template, or revising it later. Also, a feature somewhat unique to PT, but not in most other DAWs.
Destructive record? Yes. there is overdub mode (to add to a recording) or you can defeat that and overwrite the recording. I think in audio recording, the original will remain but become "unused" and you can delete all unused audio from the "soundbites" window.
That would be great, but does it actually replace the audio on disk in a single audio file, or just the soundbite reference container you see on the track (with multiple audio files on disk)? Most DAWs just record over the clip, event or soundbite, so you have a complete "take" to work with, but destructive record/destructive punch allows you to replace audio on disk in the actual source file, so you can simply re-record a mix, stem, etc and transfer that file to an editor, sound stage, client, etc without bouncing that track to a final mix/file.

Good to hear on the rest - thanks again for the reply!

From what I've found in various sources online, DP may well fit the workflow I'm looking for, with some expected differences. It certainly has quite a few film scoring features I miss in PT, while PT has a super fast general workflow for setup, editing, mixing, etc.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

For scoring to picture, it is going to be hard to beat DP, IMO. I'm trying to think of a negative but really cannot. As much as I am very involved here, I'm not a "fanboy." I'm really only interested in the tools I need to get the job done efficiently and with the highest quality possible. If that meant Pro Tools, that's where I'd be. Heck, if that meant a PC, that's where I'd be.

As far as showing and hiding tracks in the Track Overview window, folders are DPs option. HOWEVER, DP also has window sets which are KC programmable and basically any window set you arrange and save and assign to a key can be called up in any project. This might be helpful but I did test it just now and it does not remember if a folder is open or closed. Folders are also functional in the sequence editor. Personally, I find the sequence editor a little less useful than the graphic editor since I can't see as much data. A lot can be done right from the tracks overview via the menu (change velocity, duration, cc data, etc).

I wouldn't reject track folders as cumbersome. You can select a series of tracks (not necessarily next to each other) and in with a contextual click, turn that into a folder. So even if you have your instruments across different VIs, you can still have all the brass in one folder, strings in another, etc.

Another thing that you can do is drag one sequence to another and they will line up and sync into one sequence. This is pretty handy if you are working sfx or dialogue in one sequence (which MOTU calls chunks for some bazaar reason) and want to combine your bounced cues and other audio (and/or MIDI data) into one master sequence. I just became aware of this in the past few days but could certainly have used it in many of my more complex projects.
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kdm
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by kdm »

I think I'll have to pick up a copy whenever 8 is released (Win7 here or I would get 7 now) and sit down with it for a day or so to dig into how DP works, and how I might be able to address some of my workflow preferences with it's methodology.

I appreciate your input - very helpful. And I agree - it's about getting the job done, whatever works best, or in my case, adding that extra 10% that makes the day just a little more efficient and creative.
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Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by frankf »

kdm wrote:Thanks for the reply!


From what I've found in various sources online, DP may well fit the workflow I'm looking for, with some expected differences. It certainly has quite a few film scoring features I miss in PT, while PT has a super fast general workflow for setup, editing, mixing, etc.
I use the Track Group function to show/hide (among other things) section tracks (eg violins). Click in the track selector on one track in the group and all tracks become visible/invisible and/or have them all switch editing layers together. Select tracks and create a group with a keystroke. One assignable keystroke turns off grouping all together, select a track not in the group and add it to the group. With the Track Groping window open I can click to enable/disable individual groups. Very flexible. And Window Sets are an amazing workflow enhancer for me, also key assignable. For example, I have 10 sets I use most often assigned to the 0-9 keys on the keyboard (top row, not Keypad). Instant switching. (DP knows when you are in a text field, so there's no conflict). Don't use PT so I don't know about comparable features.


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Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

If you decide on buying DP I believe there is a crossgrade price available.
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Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

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I don't think grouping effects visibility in the tracks overview window. Does it? I'll have to check that thus morning. If it does I've overlooked it.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by bayswater »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
kdm wrote:6 - Probably basic, but are there key command options to show/select various cc controller views or lanes? I found a video where a DP user had assigned macros to do something like this, but it may have been using a general OSX macro layer (Quickeys?), not DP's own kc's(that's fine, but may or may not work on PC/Win7 the same way, or may simply be too cumbersome).
DP's Commands Window is quite extensive. Pretty much most of what you can do in DP can be assigned without Quickeys of the Mac interface. I prefer QK as I like to link various commands.
I don't think there are any key commands to bring a specific automation layer to the front for editing on audio tracks. You can click on an event to bring its layer to the front, or use a menu, but when the waveform is at the front the other layers are not visible, except through the gaps between soundbites (regions). A key command to at least cycle through the layers would be very useful.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

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I'm pretty sure that is correct bayswatter. You could probably use Quickeys to do that one way or another.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by bayswater »

I might do that if I could confirm that anyone has that particular macro working. I don't know enough about Quickeys.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

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I believe you can set that up in QK by recording mouse movements and clicks. Windows might have to be in exactly the same place but window sets will make sure of that and a sequence of quickey macros can do all that in one stroke. There may well be a simpler way to do that in QK.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by bayswater »

So if you could tell Quickeys to operate on the currently selected track in DP, wouldn't it still be specific to a specific set of automation layers? I'd think there would have to be some sequence of actual commands either in Finder or DP to make it work. If Quickeys can get around that, it's magic, and I have to have it.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

Post by kdm »

At one time I found a video of a DP user that had setup QK to switch automation layers (or so it appeared - no audio, and it was all done rather quickly).

It was obviously a macro accessing a menu, clicking, etc as you could see the cascade of commands - not elegant, but it seemed to work.
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Re: Considering DP for scoring - advanced workflow questions

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As mentioned earlier, Quickeys allows you to record mouse movements and clicks very precisely. You certainly can record the mouse clicking on the layer selector and moving to exactly where you want to select (soundbite, volume, etc) and click. In non-standard menus (such as some of the drop-downs in DP) the windows have to be placed exactly as they were when the recording was made, but again (as before) window sets can do that.

The procedure then, in a QK shortcut, is to create a series of steps: 1- Call up your window set; 2- call up your mouse recording, etc. All of these steps can be incorporated into on keystroke to have the steps fire off in sequence. The process can be streamlined to eliminate some delays that real mousing entails (as far as I recall).

I have not setup one of these in a long time, but I know it can be done.

Here's a good starting place:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 23#p349323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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