It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:49 pm
   
Text Size

My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Digital Perfomer in the context of television/film scoring and post-production.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for discussion related to the use of Digital Perfomer in the context of television and film scoring and post-production.

My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby KenNickels » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:01 pm

I'm using Proverb on the mix buss from sends on the audio tracks. But man, I must be missing some basic methodology for putting the instruments in a believable space. Most everything I hear sounds ten times better than mine. I am hoping you can advise me here. Help!
Mac Pro 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 64GB Ram, OS 10.12.5, MOTU Audio Express, DP 9.13, Machfive, Eastwest Sample Libraries, Embertone stuff and Albion
User avatar
KenNickels
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: NYC
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby Gravity Jim » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:08 pm

My first questions would be:

What monitors are you mixing with?

Are you using the East/West orchestral VIs?
Jim Bordner
http://www.gravitymusic.com
MacPro 5,1 (3.33Ghz 12-core), 32g RAM, OS X 10.13.2 Beta • MOTU 896mk3 • MOTU DP 9.5.1 • Logic Pro X 10.2.5 • Waves Diamond, UAD-2, Slate Digital, Komplete, Omnisphere 2, Chipsounds, V Collection 5, Korg Legacy • Roland & Yamaha hardware • Fender, Gibson, Godin, Danelectro, Line 6, Warmoth, Hofner and Cedar Creek guitars, Fuchs ODS amp
User avatar
Gravity Jim
 
Posts: 1790
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:55 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:19 pm

How many instances of your VIs are you running?

Are you using reverb on the mix only? individual instruments? groups?
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
User avatar
mikehalloran
 
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: Sillie Con Valley
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby KenNickels » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:30 pm

Thanks for the reply. I had forgotten this post ...
I have several issues against me, I know. I use Behringer two way 8" speakers. They are not that great. The room is square-ish without much acoustic treatment to speak of. I've taken to EQ-ing minimally, because the more EQ the worse it sounds, and most everything sounds good out of the box (EW Hollywood strings, for example.) Five Plays, 1 Kontakt. I have some hearing loss, so I'm probably mixing with louder highs than I should. Lately I've been mixing with Sennheiser phones because of all this.

I try to get a good balance where I can hear all the parts in relation to each other, using basically using the modwheel for brightness and CC11 for volume. I'd like to know what a more experienced VI orchestral mixer does and doesn't do, regarding getting that open natural breathing space.
Mac Pro 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 64GB Ram, OS 10.12.5, MOTU Audio Express, DP 9.13, Machfive, Eastwest Sample Libraries, Embertone stuff and Albion
User avatar
KenNickels
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: NYC
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:17 pm

Reverb can be used to create depth in a mix back to front just as pan pots can be used to set R/L. I am talking small amounts on your instruments and/or groups.

Remove any reverb from your Master buss for now.

Brass is generally in the back unless you have a large choir behind. Apply just enough to hear it. Apply half that to the woodwinds. Don't apply any to the violins and violas, a small amount to the celli and a little less to the double-basses than the brass. If there is a choir, double the amount you used on the brass. Soloists should have no reverb but, if present, add a little bit to the fiddles to place them back in the mix.

I am not saying what to use here but it should have a fairly short tail and not be too bright or dark — I use a small hall setting for this.

Assuming that you have panned things properly, there should now be a 3-D aspect to your mix that was missing before.

Only when you have this sounding the way you want, should you add a Master reverb for general ambience. This will flatten your mix a bit so you can remove it and tweak the settings to compensate if you like. Now try again.

I generally add too much, wait a day, listen with fresh ears and dial it back some. YMMV.

Yes, you should have better monitors but I'll leave that alone for now.
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
User avatar
mikehalloran
 
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: Sillie Con Valley
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby KenNickels » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:20 pm

I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't sends accomplish the amount of reverb going to each instrument? What is different?
Mac Pro 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 64GB Ram, OS 10.12.5, MOTU Audio Express, DP 9.13, Machfive, Eastwest Sample Libraries, Embertone stuff and Albion
User avatar
KenNickels
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: NYC
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:33 pm

KenNickels wrote:I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't sends accomplish the amount of reverb going to each instrument? What is different?

It's the amounts you apply in the various layers that give you depth. How you add it isn't that important.

You can play with the amounts to move a layer front to back in your mix.

Choir - most
Brass - noticeable
Double-basses - less than brass but not 1/2
Winds - 1/2 brass
Celli - a little less than the winds
Fiddles - none unless there are soloists, then add a little
Soloists - none

Once you have your depth, add reverb to the master for ambience. Use your soloist or violins to gauge how much.
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
User avatar
mikehalloran
 
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: Sillie Con Valley
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby KenNickels » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:40 pm

Thanks Mike. In any case, I've been adding too much reverb. I'll keep your guidlines in mind when I mix next time.
Mac Pro 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 64GB Ram, OS 10.12.5, MOTU Audio Express, DP 9.13, Machfive, Eastwest Sample Libraries, Embertone stuff and Albion
User avatar
KenNickels
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: NYC
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby terrybritton » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:35 pm

mikehalloran wrote:
KenNickels wrote:I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't sends accomplish the amount of reverb going to each instrument? What is different?

It's the amounts you apply in the various layers that give you depth. How you add it isn't that important.

You can play with the amounts to move a layer front to back in your mix.

Choir - most
Brass - noticeable
Double-basses - less than brass but not 1/2
Winds - 1/2 brass
Celli - a little less than the winds
Fiddles - none unless there are soloists, then add a little
Soloists - none

Once you have your depth, add reverb to the master for ambience. Use your soloist or violins to gauge how much.


Thanks, Mike - nice guidelines to have on a card pinned somewhere in the studio! I've put it in my Evernote for now. :-)

Terry
Computer: Dell XPS 8700-1751BLK | Intel Haswell Core i7 4790@3.6Mhz | 16GB DDR3 1600Mhz | Windows 10 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid- USB

DAWs and Live: MOTU Digital Performer 9.1.3 | Samplitude Pro X3 Suite | Cantabile 3 Performer
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88, Akai MPK249, Behringer BCF2000; NI Maschine Jam; Peavey PC 1600x
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Lexicon LXP-5

Videos: https://www.youtube.com/terryleighbritton
User avatar
terrybritton
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:45 am
Location: Elizabeth City, NC
Primary DAW OS: Windows

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby KenNickels » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:30 pm

Mike, what kind of speakers would you recommend?
Mac Pro 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 64GB Ram, OS 10.12.5, MOTU Audio Express, DP 9.13, Machfive, Eastwest Sample Libraries, Embertone stuff and Albion
User avatar
KenNickels
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: NYC
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby daniel.sneed » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:20 pm

Go figure: I always set too much reverb to get some space and dial back later to get some punch...
dAn
Shake it all over!
___
DP9.51, OS10.12.6, MacBookPro-i7-3.1Ghz-1ToSSD-16GoRam
Pianoteq, Falcon, Alchemy, Iris, BreakTweaker, Kontakt, Absynth, Reason, GPO, Miroslav
Novation 49SLmkII, Studiologic VMK161+, ControlPad, EWIusb
Blofeld, UltraNova & MiniNova,
Lexicon, Ozone, RX, Alloy, Trash, SpectraFoo, IrcamTS
JBL4326+4312sub, Behringer X-32 rack
Many mics (Tuby or not tuby? That is the question)
Many guitars, banjos, mandolins, flutes, xylos, kalimbas...
http://myspace.com/adokmusic
User avatar
daniel.sneed
 
Posts: 2089
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:01 pm
Location: France
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:23 pm

KenNickels wrote:Mike, what kind of speakers would you recommend?

Good studio monitors known to be accurate that you can trust. This does cover a lot of ground, I admit.

I use a pair of Equator D8 with the wedges, a JBL LSR310 sub crossed over at 80Hz and a Radial MC3 passive controller. It's a system I trust at 3'–4'. Street $1,400.
http://www.equatoraudio.com/New-Improve ... r-p/d8.htm
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/reco ... cL3o9OGOV4
http://www.radialeng.com/mc3.php

That MC3 controller gives me a level of flexibility that most users don't need. I can balance the speaker pairs and sub via trim pots plus I can reverse the polarity of the sub and remove it from the mix, all from the unit — no crawling under my desk to adjust the JBL Most won't need that functionality, frankly as those are also controllable from all active speakers and decent subs.

Equator is of the opinion you don't really need a sub with the D8s — I wouldn't trust them as well without. A number of $399–$1,200 subs work well with these. Ted recommends the KRK 12S, not a bad choice (I prefer the JBL to the KRK 10S but the 10S isn't awful). You can take some subs out of the mix with a footswitch, a very handy feature — missing on the LSR310 but the Radial lets me do that from the desktop.

The Genelec 8050A / 8050B are popular around here. The difference is a special low-power idle mode on the B. The A was discontinued around 2013 but can be sometimes be found used. Street new is $3,800 for the 8050B

So many choices.
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
User avatar
mikehalloran
 
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: Sillie Con Valley
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby KenNickels » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:05 am

Thank you for those suggestions, Mike. The Equator web site lists those speakers as $749(pr). Not so?

Regarding the sub woofer: Do you use this because you anticipate your audience using them as well? Or to keep you from making bass heavy mixes? I'm curious as to their usage.

Thanks
Mac Pro 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 64GB Ram, OS 10.12.5, MOTU Audio Express, DP 9.13, Machfive, Eastwest Sample Libraries, Embertone stuff and Albion
User avatar
KenNickels
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: NYC
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby HCMarkus » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:20 am

KenNickels wrote:Regarding the sub woofer: Do you use this because you anticipate your audience using them as well? Or to keep you from making bass heavy mixes?

Yes! :wink:

Switching the sub in and out gives two perspectives on a mix, both of which are valuable.

Subs are also a great help in identifying low frequency artifacts one can easily miss without a sub.
User avatar
HCMarkus
 
Posts: 6158
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:01 am
Location: Rancho Bohemia, California
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: My Orchestral Mixes Sound Two Dimensional

Postby mikehalloran » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:49 pm

KenNickels wrote:Thank you for those suggestions, Mike. The Equator web site lists those speakers as $749(pr). Not so?
So. When they get them back in stock, they may offer a package with the foam wedges and cables — last time the sale price was $699. Being also in California, I pay sales tax.

My $1,400 Street includes $399 for the sub + $259 for the Radial MC3. In my case, I had Sweetwater combine the two for a bundle price that saved me money. Sweetwater is a sponsor of this site so, if I can use them, I do.

Lots of good subs out there. Unlike the JBL, the KRK 10S and PreSonus Temblor T10 use a footswitch for bypassing the sub temporarily (included with the T10). The MC3 makes that redundant so it doesnt matter that the JBL doesn’t have that function. All three go for $399.

Lots of controllers on the market. The Mackie Big Knob is discontinued but easy to find used. Mackie has replaced it with a few new models. Get one that sums to Mono by pushing a button — so convienient compared to doing it in software. This lets you find if there are phase anomalies between your channels. Being able to turn your mix up and down with one knob... again, infinitely more convenient than doing it in software. Most will have a -20dB button so that you knock the volume down if someone wants to talk to you while working — convenient. You’ll find lots of recommendations for other active and passive controllers in other threads.

Regarding the sub woofer: Do you use this because you anticipate your audience using them as well? Or to keep you from making bass heavy mixes? I'm curious as to their usage.

Thanks
Again, yes to both questions.

I hear quite clearly down there and I want to know what’s going on.
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
User avatar
mikehalloran
 
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:08 pm
Location: Sillie Con Valley
Primary DAW OS: MacOS


Return to Digital Performer: Film/Video Scoring & Post Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 151 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:07 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Login Form