M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string guitar

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otalgia-2000
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M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string guitar

Post by otalgia-2000 »

hey folks

i'd like to create a new program for a prepared 12-string guitar and i'm not sure how best to go about it.

i have recorded each open string 4 times at various levels of forcefulness: piano, mezzo, forte and pizz (i did not record every fret of every string 4 times, however -- only the open voicing of each string).

my idea is to map the articulations to velocities -- no big deal there, i reckon: i'm assigning the pizz articulation to note-on levels 1-3; piano to 4-23; mezzo to 24-83; forte to 84-127.

however i'm not sure whether to use separate layers for each velocity on each string, or just a new keygroup on the same layer and simply let the note-on level definitions handle which articulation is sounded.

i'm also not sure if i need to limit my layer widths to only one key per string; or if i should use 1 big layer that holds all 4 velocities for each string (e.g. 1 entire-keyboard-encompassing layer for, say, all of string #5's velocity samples assigned to note-ons as detailed above; 1 keyboard-encompassing layer for string #8's velocity samples assigned to note-ons as above, etc.)

using keygroups that span the entire keyboard has produced some interesting results, so ideally i'd like to get each string to respond to a wide range of note values (wider perhaps than might be possible on a real guitar even). the preparations get even wilder when they can be played at pitches beyond the natural, so i'd like to be able to do that if i can.

but i don't want to trigger any strings simultaneously (unless i want to) and of course if all the notes are assigned to keygroups that are the entire width of the keyboard, there's gonna be trouble.

so i'm not sure that it's possible to set this up... but then, if telematic can do something like this, perhaps there's a way.

is the best idea to assign each string's 4 note-samples to one key in each octave and then repeat the entire group at the next octave? or is there a way to allow each string's 4 velocities to span a larger key range, yet still not get crossed up when a different key is played?

btw, i'm actually creating 2 programs with these sounds:

one program assigns each string's 4 velocity options on its own key for an "articulated" version, as if each of the 12 strings on the guitar could be played alone.

the other program stacks each of the string-pairs to a single key, with a very short built-in gap between the attacks of the samples so as to (roughly) simulate what would happen if i actually played the pair of strings in the natural way.

with both programs i'd ideally like to get a beyond-natural pitch range out of each string's 4 loudness variations, but as described above, not have all keys strike all strings all the time.

i get the feeling that layers & (perhaps some key-switching rules) may get me where i want to go, but the manual doesn't really step-by-step how i might go about achieving my intentions. which might not really be achievable ultimately, but when did that ever stop me!

i know this is a pretty involved request, and that i may not have expressed myself clearly -- thanks to you all for reading for any assistance you can provide.

o-2k

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bayswater
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by bayswater »

That's a really interesting problem. If I understand, you want to be able to play any guitar string from any piano key, but make sure that only one guitar string is played from one key press. I can think of two approaches.

1) Use something like the Telematic. It uses some rules to decide which string is played depending on what other strings are being played, the chord, etc. That limits the possibilities to the rules you devise, and you'd have to learn the programming language, or use the Telematic as a template and adopt its rules.

2) do what MIDI guitar interfaces do: a MIDI channel per string. Make 6 (or 12) M5 patches, each with the string assigned to the entire keyboard, and the 4 samples assigned to velocity ranges, perhaps with cross fading. Load all 6 (or 12) into M5 at once, assigned to MIDI channels 1-6 (or 12), and save as a Performance. Now you can play any note on the keyboard, and determine which string is played by the MIDI channel the note goes out on.
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otalgia-2000
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by otalgia-2000 »

thanks very much for taking the time to read and reply.

your second option looks like the one more-easily attempted, and if it's ok i have one question about it:

i know that once i've recorded some MIDI into DP, i can split each note onto its own track, and thereby arrive at the discreet MIDI channeling into M5 you describe.

but i don't know that either of my keyboards can do that kind of splitting as i'm playing.

assigning specific keys to specific MIDI channels does not seem like an option on either of my two controllers (M-Audio Keystation 88 or AKAI MPK-49), but then, i've never had reason to need to try it before now. i couldn't see any reference to setting this up specifically in the documentation for either unit but perhaps it's so basic and commonly-done that i'm missing it somehow.

if in fact it's one (or all) MIDI channels across the whole controller, then i'm imagining that i may have to create the recording in two operations: the actual playing, and then the splitting-apart of the playing (...and then there's the tweeking... always, the tweeking...) however this method would have a deleterious effect on spontaneity.

...and so forth. honestly, i blame it all on that old devil super-moon.

thanks very much again! fascinating stuff, this M5...

0-2k

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bayswater
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by bayswater »

We had a supermoon and a neap tide at the same time here, so nothing worked for a couple of days.

I'm not familiar with your keyboard. All I can think of is that many keyboards make velocity and key splits available. It's not clear how that would solve this specific problem with all the combinations you might need, including a need for 24 octaves in total. There are only so many unique signals a keyboard can send, and you need more.

Maybe another way to come at it, is to layer all the 6 (or 12) M5 patches in the previous example, into one M5 patch, and then use keyswitching to select among them. You'd only need 2 octaves to play any one guitar string, and that leaves you a lot of keys to use to determine which of the layers M5 should play. Of course, you'll need six fingers on your right hand to play a complete chord while keyswitching.

It's one of those situations where creating a MIDI controller to simulate an instrument with samples gets more complicated, and requires a steeper learning curve than playing the real instrument.
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otalgia-2000
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by otalgia-2000 »

bayswater wrote:We had a supermoon and a neap tide at the same time here, so nothing worked for a couple of days.
leaving the question, when this occurs: whether pack up the car and simply go camping? or head to the basement and hide out til it's over! :?
bayswater wrote:I'm not familiar with your keyboard. All I can think of is that many keyboards make velocity and key splits available. It's not clear how that would solve this specific problem with all the combinations you might need, including a need for 24 octaves in total. There are only so many unique signals a keyboard can send, and you need more.

Maybe another way to come at it, is to layer all the 6 (or 12) M5 patches in the previous example, into one M5 patch, and then use keyswitching to select among them. You'd only need 2 octaves to play any one guitar string, and that leaves you a lot of keys to use to determine which of the layers M5 should play. Of course, you'll need six fingers on your right hand to play a complete chord while keyswitching.

It's one of those situations where creating a MIDI controller to simulate an instrument with samples gets more complicated, and requires a steeper learning curve than playing the real instrument.
hear you loud & clear on that score. and i'm trying to do this in a way that is as simplified as possible as well, but (around here at least), i find it's often lots easier to think it up than it is to hook it up!

i'm going to see what the key splits can accomplish. it may be that i can get enough of them working to make the playing possible in a limited range, and do any desired elaboration with editing later.

thanks so much!

0-2k

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otalgia-2000
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by otalgia-2000 »

bayswater wrote:That's a really interesting problem. If I understand, you want to be able to play any guitar string from any piano key, but make sure that only one guitar string is played from one key press. I can think of two approaches.

1) Use something like the Telematic. It uses some rules to decide which string is played depending on what other strings are being played, the chord, etc. That limits the possibilities to the rules you devise, and you'd have to learn the programming language, or use the Telematic as a template and adopt its rules.

2) do what MIDI guitar interfaces do: a MIDI channel per string. Make 6 (or 12) M5 patches, each with the string assigned to the entire keyboard, and the 4 samples assigned to velocity ranges, perhaps with cross fading. Load all 6 (or 12) into M5 at once, assigned to MIDI channels 1-6 (or 12), and save as a Performance. Now you can play any note on the keyboard, and determine which string is played by the MIDI channel the note goes out on.
thanks again - this gets more interesting the more i think about it, and i have two new questions.

first a little more info from my end:

i'm lucky that the nature of this particular M5 program doesn't really lend itself to performance intricacies. after all, it's a prepared 12-string; i don't really need to sound more than maybe 2, 3 notes max at a time (any chord more involved than that just demand too much of the hapless listener, i fear.)

that being the case, it looks to me like keyswitching is the way to go since i'd have plenty of spare fingers with which to pull that off. but thinking about it lead me to a question about approach in general:

clearly i can either do this as layers in one part, with one or two layer-specific rules, or with multiple parts defined as a performance (in the manner you suggested originally).

i can see reasons for doing either, and other reasons to avoid one or the other. since i'm just really getting into this, i'd like to ask if there are rough guidelines that you follow when you're "ordering off the menu", so to speak.

question 2 might be almost impossible for you to help out with, but here goes:

i'm testing this on a few alternate programs -- one where each string is assigned on one layer to one key that has the velocities on 4 keygroups on that key.

the other has with each guitar string on one across-the-board layer, again with the velocities on their own keygroups stretching across the board.

yet when i play my keyboard, neither version seems to sound any half-steps; i seem to hear whole-steps only.

personally i don't think that the guitar was so "prepared" as to obscure the fine differentiations between the sound of a half and a whole step -- i'd expect to hear those as walk up the keyboard.

i realize that a problem like this is highly situation-specific, but might be possible for you to offer any guesses as to why i'm only hearing whole-steps?

all the best,
0-2k

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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by bayswater »

Not sure I'm following you. I thought you said you had done four samples for each string, one for each of 4 velocity levels, and that all the sample were done with open strings. With that, if you drop the sample on the root note in the Keygroup editor, and drag it's boundaries across a range of notes, you ought to hear it play back in half steps as you play up and down the keyboard.

There is a setting that maps the playback against MIDI notes. For example, if you set it to a negative value like -100%, playback will be reversed (as you move down the keyboard the notes will ascend). If you set that value too high (e.g. 200%), you could possibly get whole tone intervals when playing tone intervals.

As for how to arrange the layers and keyswitches, I don't think it matters. When I did this, I put layers in patches and put those into a performance with keyswitching, only because it seemed simpler to set up that way.
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otalgia-2000
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by otalgia-2000 »

bayswater wrote:Not sure I'm following you. I thought you said you had done four samples for each string, one for each of 4 velocity levels, and that all the sample were done with open strings. With that, if you drop the sample on the root note in the Keygroup editor, and drag it's boundaries across a range of notes, you ought to hear it play back in half steps as you play up and down the keyboard.
yup, that's what i thought too!

but that doesn't seem to happen if you assign each sample-set-of-4 to one key each (i was trying to do each string sequentially in repeated blocks of 12 -- basically one sample-set-of-4 per half-step).

the stretch-across-entire range is what i'll try next.

thanks so much again!

o-2k

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otalgia-2000
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by otalgia-2000 »

bayswater wrote:Not sure I'm following you. I thought you said you had done four samples for each string, one for each of 4 velocity levels, and that all the sample were done with open strings. With that, if you drop the sample on the root note in the Keygroup editor, and drag it's boundaries across a range of notes, you ought to hear it play back in half steps as you play up and down the keyboard.

There is a setting that maps the playback against MIDI notes. For example, if you set it to a negative value like -100%, playback will be reversed (as you move down the keyboard the notes will ascend). If you set that value too high (e.g. 200%), you could possibly get whole tone intervals when playing tone intervals.

As for how to arrange the layers and keyswitches, I don't think it matters. When I did this, I put layers in patches and put those into a performance with keyswitching, only because it seemed simpler to set up that way.
hello again

if you're still following this thread, here's a twist on the half-step mystery:

turns out that it's my controller that isn't sounding them. but M5 itself is (hooray for M5!) -- if i simply mouse-over-&-click on the keys in M5, the half-steps are faithfully sounded.

triggering M5 with my controller yields far wackier results.

buffer settings are probably contributing to the erratic responses i'm getting there -- these were fast-n-nasty tests just to make sure things were working at all, i didn't lower the buffer settings because i wasn't in full-on-let's-jam mode. there are all kinds of triggering latencies and oddness, and i'll circle back on that question (with the last-resort option of a factory reset on my controller) once i get the whole thing set up in M5.

but i did want to report that yes, half-steps are indeed happening within the M5 domain itself, which is... somewhat reassuring? ...i guess?

i am also seeing that the 6-or-12-discreet-parts-with-performance-saved-as-multi could be the way to go, since that leaves lots of latitude for tweeking the behavior of each program without locking me into those adjustments which are reserved for layers only, or keygroups only (and yes, i will be curious to see just how much of a CPU-hog this beast will be once that's been set up).

thanks again for steering this voyage,

0-2k

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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by bayswater »

Maybe download MIDI Monitor at snoize.com and see exactly what MIDI messages are coming out of your controller. I usually keep it running in the background, and when something makes no sense, it really helps to identify where the error is.
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otalgia-2000
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Re: M5 - program setup advice request: prepared 12-string gu

Post by otalgia-2000 »

bayswater wrote:Maybe download MIDI Monitor at snoize.com and see exactly what MIDI messages are coming out of your controller. I usually keep it running in the background, and when something makes no sense, it really helps to identify where the error is.
yes! another blade for the swiss army knife. factory-reset seems to have helped somewhat but i will certainly check that monitor download out.

many thanks,

o-2k

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