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New Imac Advice

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New Imac Advice

Postby miller325 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:08 pm

I've been away from recording and DP for a number of years, since DP 4.62. I plan to purchase a new imac 5k, buy DP9 and upgrade Mach Five to version 3. I'm concerned about fan noise and am trying to choose between these two models:

3.3 GHz quad core i5, 1TB SSD and 8GB RAM (I will upgrade to 32GB RAM)

and

4.0 GHz quad core i7, 1 TB SSD and 8GB RAM ( I will upgrade to 32GB RAM)

Both models would have the AMD Radeon R9 M395 graphics.

Will heat and the fans ramping up causing more noise be considerably different between the two models running DP9, Mach FIve, some Ableton Live and Omnisphere? Does the the 3.3 GHz i5 Intel run that much cooler than the 4.0 GHz i7 Intel? Would there be that much difference in fan noise? I mostly record myself.

Thanks and any advice appreciated.
Philip
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby mikehalloran » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:45 pm

Fan noise is quite low in iMacs with SSDs.

You want the i7 CPU, however. For disk intensive tasks, there is little difference (the SSD is quite fast in both cases). CPU intensive tasks, OTOH, can run many times faster on an i7 than an i5 due to the FPU on the i7.

I A/B'd tasks on my wife's i5 vs my older i7, both with the original HHDs and replacement SSDs. I was surprised when it first happened but am able to replicate the test using DP.

When it comes time to move your old files over, either use Migration Assistant or zip/compress/archive the files from the old Mac first. Unzipping grants your privileges and permissions. Migration Assistant and Time Machine do this as well. This doesn't just affect DP, BTW, Office and many other file types are similarly affected.
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby mikehalloran » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:01 pm

A few other things.

Absolutely get 32G RAM. I thought that 20G was enough till recently. It's not so much that DP needs it but there are many other apps that consume RAM. Many apps and plugs also have memory leaks. Upgrading to 32G and rebooting every morning ended my problems.

If you want to run additional monitors, you do not need Thunderbolt monitors. The newest backlit LED HDMI monitors are now cool to the touch and hook right up with these inexpensive adapters (that Apple does not offer!?!). These are $9 but you can find them for under $5 if you shop around. You can run up to two plug & play with these.

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-DisplayP ... lt+to+hdmi

Although Thunderbolt external storage is fast, so is USB 3. If you run two extra monitors, they go into the TB ports. USB 3 to external SSDs is faster than DP ever needs.

For Time Machine, a USB 3 drive works but an Apple Time Capsule is more convenient—it can be connected via Gigabyte Ethernet or even faster over 802.11ac wireless (supported by your new iMac). If you buy it at the same time as your iMac, you can include it into AppleCare at no additional charge. $279 at the Refurb Store.
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/FE182 ... apsule-3tb
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby miller325 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:30 pm

Mile,

Thanks for the info on the difference between the i5 and the i7. If additional fan noise is not an issue I will go with the i7. I have quite a few older DP files to move going back to DP v3.1.1. I've seen quite a few of your other posts in the past couple of weeks and I saw your advice to zip them. I also saw where it is no longer necessary to record to a separate disk for performance improvement. That surprised me but it is good news that I can record to my internal SSD without a performance hit.

I believe I will save around $400.00 by ordering the 8GB RAM model and doing the upgrade to 32 myself. From watching youtube videos it seems dead simple. I had planned to purchase the Lacie 1TB USB-3 for external backup. I will need a thunderbolt port for my audio interface. I currently have an older 2408 MK3. I'm looking at the MOTU 828x or the UA Apollo Twin.

Not sure about a second monitor right now but I bookmarked the Thunderbolt 2 to HDMI adapter.

Philip
iMac 4GHz Intel Core 7, 32 GB RAM, MacOS X 10.12.3, DP 9.12, Logic Pro X 10.3.1, MachFive 3, Live 9, Universal Audio Apollo Thunderbolt
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby FutureLegends » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:52 pm

If you are not in a hurry, I'd suggest waiting a bit, Apple should be releasing new iMacs sooner rather than later (some expected them to be introduced along with the new MacBook Pros).
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby Guitar Gaz » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:45 pm

I don't notice much noise at all. I bought 16GB Ram and then bought another 16GB online (cheaper than Apple) and installed it myself. You can wait of course but then you can always wait and never buy anything. Depends. I got the Fusion Drive of 3TB - seemed to be a compromise between SSD and old school. I have a normal extra monitor connected by a Thunderbolt adapter, and a 3TB drive connected by a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter. So all pretty good.
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:47 am

Here are the latest rumors for what it's worth:

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/new- ... l-3511338/
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby miller325 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:16 pm

Guitar Gaz, I see that you have the 3.3 GHz i5 processor and you're not hearing much fan noise, probably just the normal 1200 rpm speed fan noise which is barely audible. I've seen anecdotal evidence googling around that there is a difference between the 3.3 GHz i5 and the 4.0 GHz i7 regarding temperature increase and the fan kicking into higher speeds.

In a couple of tests I watched on youtube you could see the temperature rising more quickly and the fans ramping up beyond their usual 1200 rpm speed when running the tests on the 4.0 GHz i7. Granted these were geek bench type tests and really pushed the two processors. I don't know if using DP9 with around 20 to 24 tracks along with Mach Five would be considered pushing these processors.

I would be wiling to give up a some power If it meant the difference between working in a quiet environment over an environment where fans are kicking in and out a lot of the time. Maybe I'm making too much of this and it's not really an issue, in which case I would buy the 4.0 GHz i7.

I've seen the Mac Rumors page. I know that there is always something around the corner. In this case the Kaby processors instead of the Skylake? But one of my two internal hard drives failed recently and while everything was backed up I think I need to move fairly quickly and not wait for the next generations of imacs.

Philip
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby miller325 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:26 pm

I just wanted to check something: as I mentioned earlier I have quite a few older files, some going back to DP v3.1.1 and DP 4.62. I'm assuming that DP9 has no problem opening legacy files, even as far back as DP 3?
iMac 4GHz Intel Core 7, 32 GB RAM, MacOS X 10.12.3, DP 9.12, Logic Pro X 10.3.1, MachFive 3, Live 9, Universal Audio Apollo Thunderbolt
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:42 pm

Maybe I'm making too much of this and it's not really an issue
The i5 gets the job done — no issue there. Opening a large DP file shows the difference. Screen redraws, likewise, even with identical graphics cards and RAM.

The first time I noticed it, I was the outside engineer on a project and figured that something was wrong with the iMac I was using. Then I noticed it was identical to the i5 I had at home. Ok... it performed identically. Opening it on my i7, it behaved the way I expected. Since the 2011 has TB ports and mine does not, I still kick myself for not spending the extra $200 for the i7.

I have older i5 and i7 iMacs. On identical tasks, there is no increase in fan noise. Replacing the internal HHDs with SSDs lowered the noise on both noticeably. I was ready to buy a new one before I did that.

I service about 20 others in schools and offices of various ages. It's just not an issue. You can take this for what it is...

http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/i5- ... e.1951914/
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:56 pm

I just wanted to check something: as I mentioned earlier I have quite a few older files, some going back to DP v3.1.1 and DP 4.62. I'm assuming that DP9 has no problem opening legacy files, even as far back as DP 3?
You've read my threads about the importance of zipping DP files before moving (unless using Migration Assistant or restoring from Time Machine). Pay attention to that; the files should open right up. There are a number of fixes if the old files were moved in the past. Cross that bridge if you come to it.

I went through old file hell a few years ago which is how I know about this. My files opened in DP 7.01 but not in 7.24—things got weird in 7.12 and I was able to figure out the problems. Eventually, I got everything opening in DP 8/9. Many old threads...

There are some issues concerning plugins—if using MAS, the functionality is there but it may have moved to a different plugin, usually Trim. A number of us can help with that issue. Third party plugs that old are unlikely to still work but some do. You may have to get 32Lives to make certain plugs function. You may also just decide to redo them in DP 9 with 64bit or universal plugs.
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby miller325 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:32 pm

Mike, I have a few questions about hard drive strategy. I may have lost touch with what's been going on in the past few years. From reading some of you older posts I see that it is accepted strategy to record to the same internal SSD boot drive where DP resides. Is there ever any advantage to partitioning the internal SSD drive and using a separate partition to record to or to store your libraries? Maybe there's no advantage to partitions at all anymore, if there ever was.

I was planning on buying the Lacie Porsche USB 3.0 drive, connect it to a USB port on the imac and use it for backup. Or, should I store my Mach Five and other libraries there and save over 100 GB of space on my internal SSD? If I did that should I buy a 2TB external drive, partition it and use 1TB for a backup and the other TB to store libraries? Would libraries work just as well on an external USB drive?

But then I see something like the Lacie D2 Thunderbolt 2 USB 3.0, which I think means only that it has both thunderbolt and USB 3 connectivity, that it is just a USB 3.0 drive. By connecting this drive via thunderbolt would I get better performance with libraries stored there? IOW, am I just wasting internal SSD space by storing libraries there?
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby miller325 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:14 pm

Mike, thanks. I take it as real world experience which is what I was looking for. I will order the 4.0 GHz i7.

Philip
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby miller325 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:17 pm

I zipped a few old DP 3 files today, moved them across drives and opened them in DP 4.62 just for practice. I realize this was not a real a test because I was dealing with the same OS. I got the Device Remap window and then the Effects Error window with the option to Clear Missing or OK. The effects error is not as issue for me, I just want them to open. I might be interested in trying new plugins or remixing or just seeing what's there Thanks for pointing this out though.

Philip
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Re: New Imac Advice

Postby mikehalloran » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:37 pm

SATA, introduced with the G5, made the older practice of having apps, files and libraries on separate drives to take advantage of multi threading obsolete. That bus was 15x faster; the current internal bus on the iMac is much faster than USB 3 which is only 50x faster than the IDE bus on a G4. Technology has evolved.

Likewise, no advantage to partitioning unless you want to boot from multiple OS, not an issue with the latest anything from Apple. There will be a hidden repair partition that you access by holding down the Option key while booting—you will not use it for any other purpose if you access it at all.

DP 9.02 and 9.12 run side by side if you need to. Many threads on why you might want to run one over the other. Install both.
July 2010 iMac 2.93G i7 Quad, OWC eSATA mod, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1
828mkII FW; MOTU MTP/AV USB with Firmware 2.0.1; DP 9.5.1; IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan Antares, 32Lives, MachFive 3.2.1
LogicPro X 10.3.2, Finale 25.4.1, 2014.5, Encore 5.0.7, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave 1.18, DSP-Q 4.4, QuickTime Pro 7.6.6, SmartScore Pro X2 10.5.5, Toast 15.1
Test machine: G4-1K Dual Processor: OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2.2; DP 5.13; Encore 5.05 & 4.5.5; Toast 9.07b, legacy apps
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