6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by Steve Steele »

HCMarkus wrote:
Steve Steele wrote:
HCMarkus wrote:I love how the cMP continues to impress; you have taken it to the next level!

What are you using for GPU Steve? I am disappointed in the performance I am seeing with video playback in DP on my aging 5770.
I added a flashed AMD R9 280X. I considered the GTX 980 but I really only needed a somewhat good Open CL GPU. I might consider something better for my other MP.
Steve, does this card remove some of the CPU load that video operation in DP imposes?
Yes, it does. I'm getting really smooth playback in DP. However OS X splits instructions between the CPU and GPU exactly I'm not sure, but I can view it and everything looks good.

I played a large 30FPS movie in DP and stretched it's window as far as I could while letting swipers in both the Tracks and Sequence Windows scroll quickly. I also played a second similar movie in Quicktime. Looked at the CPU% in Activity Monitor and checked FPS and memory in iStats and everything looked good.

I never tested the 5770 before I pulled it. So I can't speak to it. But the 280X works great. I did notice how much better FCPX renders. But I didn't do any tests with DP.

Hope that helps.
Steve

Mac Studio M1 Ultra, 128GBs Unified memory, 4TB SSD.
Interfaces: MOTU M2 and 8A (2.1 and 5.1 setups).
DAWs: Digital Performer 11, Logic Pro, Cubase 12 Pro, Studio One Pro.
Sample Libraries: Primary - VSL (all), Spitfire, (mostly all), and many others.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by Steve Steele »

HCMarkus wrote:
Steve Steele wrote:
HCMarkus wrote:I love how the cMP continues to impress; you have taken it to the next level!

What are you using for GPU Steve? I am disappointed in the performance I am seeing with video playback in DP on my aging 5770.
I added a flashed AMD R9 280X. I considered the GTX 980 but I really only needed a somewhat good Open CL GPU. I might consider something better for my other MP.
Steve, does this card remove some of the CPU load that video operation in DP imposes?
I wonder if your not just about tapping out the memory on the 5770. It's 1GB, correct? The 280x is 3GBs. Maybe that's the difference. Otherwise the 280x isn't that much of an upgrade although it feels like it in FCPX.

Mac Studio M1 Ultra, 128GBs Unified memory, 4TB SSD.
Interfaces: MOTU M2 and 8A (2.1 and 5.1 setups).
DAWs: Digital Performer 11, Logic Pro, Cubase 12 Pro, Studio One Pro.
Sample Libraries: Primary - VSL (all), Spitfire, (mostly all), and many others.
External Controllers: Metagrid Pro and Studio Logic SL|MIXFACE
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by HCMarkus »

Thanks Steve. The 280 is amuck stronger card than the 5770, but it sounds like it doesn't make much of a difference for you in DP. PoliticalBonobo has reported a GTX960 didn't help him. Looks like hosting video on another computer may be a better improvement.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/posting ... 1&p=516867

Or run VIs from VE Pro. Probably where I will ultimately go.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by Steve Steele »

HCMarkus wrote:Thanks Steve. The 280 is amuck stronger card than the 5770, but it sounds like it doesn't make much of a difference for you in DP. PoliticalBonobo has reported a GTX960 didn't help him. Looks like hosting video on another computer may be a better improvement.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/posting ... 1&p=516867

Or run VIs from VE Pro. Probably where I will ultimately go.
What issues are you having? I'm sure you're getting it under control. But here are a few suggestions anyway.

How much memory does your scoring template take up when it starts to act up? I haven't tried this on my current MacPro, but on my 2008 MacPro when I was running DP8, when I got to about 15GBs of memory DP started getting unresponsive and sluggish. But when I got VEP, it could load samples until I maxed out my total memory (32GBs) without a problem. So, VEP would certainly help you regardless and I think it would be better than hosting video on another computer. If you have an 32-bit VIs leftover VEP can host those in it's 32-but server. I still host VIs in DP in my non-orchestral templates. So having both apps is a good thing.

As far as I know, when you open a movie in DP, OS X just opens a QuickTime X service based on whatever codec the video is. It could be the 64-bit VTDecoderXPCService and/or the 32-bit QTKitServer used by Quicktime Pro 7. If you can open and play movies in Quicktime without problem, then I doubt it's a problem within DP, your CPU(s) or your graphics card. Dp doesn't put any more strain on your graphics card that QuickTime would. DP is basically all CPU.

I'm not sure if DP gets to access this through OS X, but some recent Intel CPUs have an integrated video transcoder called Quick sync that QuickTime X can use. Xeons are not among the CPUs that have it. I'm not sure if DP can take advantage of it or not. Just a thought.

If you have Quicktime Pro, Compressor or FCP, use it to transcode any videos you get to a good size and codec for DP and your sessions. I use Compressor. I've made a custom setting and created a droplet for it so when I get videos I just drop the video on the the droplet and let Compressor automate the process and write the video file to a directory I have on my video HDD. Easy.

Seem people recommend putting video on a separate drive. That only helps with throughout and probably wouldn't be a big deal unless maybe if it's on your sample drive and your streaming a lot of samples.

If you want to check out how your GPU is doing use iStats to watch your GPU usage and the FPS it's generating.

I don't know what your set up is like, but again, I would definitely consider VEP. Now that VEP has a MAS version it's the perfect companion to DP. DP/VEP al,pst seem like one app to me now. It's also totally stable.

Btw, here's a good test video. http://images.apple.com/movies/us/hd_ga ... m1072p.mov

You probably know all of that already but I just thought I'd tell you what I do.

Mac Studio M1 Ultra, 128GBs Unified memory, 4TB SSD.
Interfaces: MOTU M2 and 8A (2.1 and 5.1 setups).
DAWs: Digital Performer 11, Logic Pro, Cubase 12 Pro, Studio One Pro.
Sample Libraries: Primary - VSL (all), Spitfire, (mostly all), and many others.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by HCMarkus »

Thank you for the detailed response Steve. While I can run sessions with video in DP, the periodic audio anomalies are off putting. Pretty sure I don't have throughput (all SSD) or memory (24 gigs) issues.

When running pop/rock non-video sessions, I have no trouble with DP hosting all of my VI's; my template is significant, but not huge, and I can work with a 128 buffer as I build a production. That said, VE Pro MAS looks like the way to go for video projects. If I need to add a slave PC or Mac at any point, VE Pro will allow me to do that, too. It would be nice to get NI's abandoned, 32 bit-only B4 back, too.

Thanks again for the solid advice.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by dix »

This M.2 SSD Raid setup looks amazing! ...but:

What are peoples thoughts on the notion that investing more money in old Mac Pros is a waste? One has to weigh how much more life our MPs have. Bumping up to a nMP isn't an option for me right now (apart from the nMP it would mean a new i/o, a Thunderbolt UAD, plus external storage solutions), but I'm finding it harder to justify further investments in this old computer, which is running well.
14-inch MBP M1 Max (2021), 13.6.x, 64GB RAM, UAD Quad Tb Satellite, 4 displays ::: 2009 4,1 > 5,1 MacPro 12-core 3.33 ghz , 10.14.x, 96GB RAM, GeForce GTX 770 , NewerTech eSATA/USB3 PCIe Host Adapter, UAD-2 Quad, ::: 15-inch MBP (2015) 10.14.x, 16GB RAM ::: Lynx Aurora (n) USB ::: DP (latest version), Vienna Ensemble Pro danwool.com
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by Steve Steele »

dix wrote:This M.2 SSD Raid setup looks amazing! ...but:

What are peoples thoughts on the notion that investing more money in old Mac Pros is a waste? One has to weigh how much more life our MPs have. Bumping up to a nMP isn't an option for me right now (apart from the nMP it would mean a new i/o, a Thunderbolt UAD, plus external storage solutions), but I'm finding it harder to justify further investments in this old computer, which is running well.
My quick opinion. If you have $3000 or less to spend and you need a Mac with Xeons that's as fast as currently possible you can make a 2009 MacPro faster than a nMP.

In other words, except for Thunderbolt, a $3000 enhanced 4,1 MacPro is equal to or better than a $9000 nMP (minus Thunderbolt).

I needed two really muscular Macs to run Digital Performer and Vienna Ensemble Pro. But, personally I wouldn't drop money into more than one or two because I do need Thunderbolt and if/when Apple releases another Xeon based (or an 8-core i7) MacPro, then these will get outpaced.

It was a blessing that the 2009-2012 MacPros were all basically the same and are updatedable.

32000 Geekbench score with 12-core x5690s. 2TBs of 6000MB/s reads, 96GBs of 1333MHz RAM for about $2500 or so. Not bad. For now.

PS. Check out create.pro for how they're doing in the UK.

Mac Studio M1 Ultra, 128GBs Unified memory, 4TB SSD.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by HCMarkus »

dix wrote:This M.2 SSD Raid setup looks amazing! ...but:

What are peoples thoughts on the notion that investing more money in old Mac Pros is a waste? One has to weigh how much more life our MPs have. Bumping up to a nMP isn't an option for me right now (apart from the nMP it would mean a new i/o, a Thunderbolt UAD, plus external storage solutions), but I'm finding it harder to justify further investments in this old computer, which is running well.
If you are hitting the wall with your cMP, you might want to consider running a Mac or PC slave with VE Pro. Except for video, I find my machine (hex, not 12 cores) gives me enough horsepower to survive, yes - conquer!, even the largest pop sessions. For me, the spend to go nMP is simply not worth it. Above and beyond the cost of the nMP itself is the plethora of other hardware that will need to be purchased to make it all work, as Steve notes.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by dix »

Thanks for the opinions.

Alright. I guess it's safe to say that until the nMPs start trouncing the 12-core cMPs in terms of cpu it's still practical to invest in cMPs as needed. For now it's really only Thunderbolt that's missing. I'm guessing the Thunderbolt stuff might even come down in price while we wait.

I can see very few ways to transition to a nMP. Pretty much everything but my software would need to go to make the switch to a nMP. Storage could be moved to a Tbolt enclosure, and I guess my UAD-2 can be housed in a Magma chassis, but these are pretty pricey options.

I'm wondering if there are there any other ways to "transition". In other words if there are upgrade options for our cMPs that will also work in nMPs. ...can these M.2 SSDs go into an external Tbolt enclosure for example (the internet is not providing clear info on this)?
14-inch MBP M1 Max (2021), 13.6.x, 64GB RAM, UAD Quad Tb Satellite, 4 displays ::: 2009 4,1 > 5,1 MacPro 12-core 3.33 ghz , 10.14.x, 96GB RAM, GeForce GTX 770 , NewerTech eSATA/USB3 PCIe Host Adapter, UAD-2 Quad, ::: 15-inch MBP (2015) 10.14.x, 16GB RAM ::: Lynx Aurora (n) USB ::: DP (latest version), Vienna Ensemble Pro danwool.com
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by Steve Steele »

dix wrote:I'm wondering if there are there any other ways to "transition". In other words if there are upgrade options for our cMPs that will also work in nMPs. ...can these M.2 SSDs go into an external Tbolt enclosure for example (the internet is not providing clear info on this)?
Yes. Because Thunderbolt is basically PCIe on a cable, you'll be able to use these PCIe storage devices in something like the OWC Helios case without any throttling of speed (especially once TB3 is here). Being future proof (as future proof as any tech is) is a good extra benefit about the M.2 drives and their PCIe cards.

I'm trying to be careful and transition too. I realize that the 4,1 and 5,1 MPs and especially the RAM I buy for them is not the best futre-proof investment (especially the RAM), but everything else I buy for them is. All of the HDD storage and M.2 SSDs will fit into Thunderbolt devices, and in the case of the nMP, there is an adapter that allows you to replace it's flash drive with the faster SM951 or 950 Pro.

The only thing I feel queazy about spending money on is the RAM. Even though I get distributer pricing on high quality memory from a very reputable distributer, only OWC assembles and sells 16GB DIMMs for the 4,1 and 5,1 MPs. And since I want to run triple channel and need more than 48GBs of RAM I'm forced to buy six 16GB DIMMS and that's pricey. But, what can I do? I just write it off to one of those unpleasant necessities. Not everyone needs that much RAM but I feel like I do.

Happy hunting!

Mac Studio M1 Ultra, 128GBs Unified memory, 4TB SSD.
Interfaces: MOTU M2 and 8A (2.1 and 5.1 setups).
DAWs: Digital Performer 11, Logic Pro, Cubase 12 Pro, Studio One Pro.
Sample Libraries: Primary - VSL (all), Spitfire, (mostly all), and many others.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by jb »

Thanks Steve for sharing all this info!
This is great news for those of us looking to inject new life into 4,1 and 5,1 Mpros.
I had found some improvement with spreading sample libs on several Sata III SSD's (Samsung EVO 850's internal & in enclosure) but still having to juggle resources for big Orchestral + hybrid pieces, so I'm definitely going to be looking at the Amfeltec card with SM 951s (950 pros also maybe ?), simple question:
let's say you're going to spread samples over roughly 1Tb on the Amfeltec, would
you favor 4 X 256GB sm2 SSD's or two 512GB ?, or does it make a difference at all if you're not using RAID ?
(I'm not too familiar with RAID so forgive my ignorance if this is really obvious). Thanks again.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by HCMarkus »

Another way to transition is to go PC or Hackintosh (which I like to think of as a MacFaux).

On the drive front, note that NVe drives are not compatible with Mac OS (at least not yet… people are working on it.) From JimJ at McRumors.com:
If and when a standard compliant NVMe kext becomes available, NVMe cards will work fine in a 4,1 or 5,1 although without boot capability, much like PC video cards without EFI roms.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by Steve Steele »

jb wrote:Thanks Steve for sharing all this info!
This is great news for those of us looking to inject new life into 4,1 and 5,1 Mpros.
I had found some improvement with spreading sample libs on several Sata III SSD's (Samsung EVO 850's internal & in enclosure) but still having to juggle resources for big Orchestral + hybrid pieces, so I'm definitely going to be looking at the Amfeltec card with SM 951s (950 pros also maybe ?), simple question:
let's say you're going to spread samples over roughly 1Tb on the Amfeltec, would
you favor 4 X 256GB sm2 SSD's or two 512GB ?, or does it make a difference at all if you're not using RAID ?
(I'm not too familiar with RAID so forgive my ignorance if this is really obvious). Thanks again.
I would consider either one large striped RAID or two striped RAIDs. For instance 4xm.2s or two 2xm.2s. 3000MB/s is so fast compared to SATA SSDs, the stream speed seems fast enough. But if you bought four 512GB SM951s four a total of 2TBs at 6000MB/s speed, when Kontakt is set for a high buffer size the m.2 RAID will certainly handle whatever you throw at it.

I think four single drives would be the least effective. Four smaller volumes, moving at the slower speeds, eh. And there's no latency issues with a RAID of these drives.

Mac Studio M1 Ultra, 128GBs Unified memory, 4TB SSD.
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by jb »

Thanks Steve, you convinced me to do my homework and read up on RAID....
:wink:
DP 11.2 MAC OS 10.13.6 Bumped Mac Pro 5,1 12 Core 3,2Ghz 128GB RAM
Pcie M2. SSD's x4 internal + Ext. SSd's. VE_PRO, LASS, Hollywood Strings, Brass, Berlin Wwinds, Spitfire Symphony Orch..etc
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Re: 6000MB/s read for MacPro! Yikes!

Post by jb »

Btw I sent for a price quote on the Amfeltec, they're asking these specifications for the order, I have a 4,1 Mpro, so it would go in the #2 slot,they ask:
"Please specify the size of the PCIe upstream adapter: x16, x8 or x4"
so 16 right?

" Please specify the size of the PCIe bracket: full size or low profile"
I take it's full right?
if anybody can confirm that would help.thanks!
DP 11.2 MAC OS 10.13.6 Bumped Mac Pro 5,1 12 Core 3,2Ghz 128GB RAM
Pcie M2. SSD's x4 internal + Ext. SSd's. VE_PRO, LASS, Hollywood Strings, Brass, Berlin Wwinds, Spitfire Symphony Orch..etc
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