Recommendation for new machine? iMac? Mac Pro?

[braxtonraymond]

Hi All

I've encountered some issues with my MacBook Pro (2.2Ghz i7, 16Gb RAM, SSD boot drive) hanging during playback at buffer settings that are low enough for me to track MIDI without latency making it impossible. In order to listen back to everything, I end up changing my buffer settings to something higher, then ALL my samples have to reload into RAM, each time I do that, and then again when I change back to a quicker setting to track MIDI again. Not at all helpful for my workflow.

My main focus currently is just doing mock-ups of orchestral/theatrical music to be played later hopefully by live players, who I would most likely not record myself.

I'm on DP 7, and I currently use Cinematic Strings, Wallander WIVI, and Native Instruments Komplete 8. I have an original Motu Traveller as my interface, and I track MIDI using an Axiom 49 and/or an Akai EWI 4000s. I will most be expanding my sample library soon, buying better drives (thunderbolt ssd's), and possibly getting a new interface as well, (again probably thunderbolt).

I'd be curious which way you guys would lean: I'm currently wrestling with either going for a Mac Pro 6 core or the top of the line retina iMac 4.0GHz. I read an interesting article http://www.mixedbymarcmozart.com/2015/0 ... or-mixing/about buying a DAW computer, and the author (Marc Mozart of Mixedbymozart.com) was saying that for virtual instruments that clock speed trumps the amount of cores, unless I guess the software optimizes use of multiple cores.

Thoughts? Should I be considering the modular nature of the mac pro that may allow for future upgrades? Does DP make use of multiple cores in a way such that a 6 core mac pro would be a better investment than top of the line iMac? What am I not considering?

Any ideas people? Thanks for your time!

Braxton

[monkey man]

I'm sure some will back me up when I say that arguably the best value-for-money option for you might be to pick up a second-hand Mac Pro and pop a pair of 6-core Xeons into it.

You'd probably be looking at a 2009->2012 unit, although I suspect some have upgraded 2008 models in this way. The later the Mac, the fatter the buss pipeline and the quicker the RAM. All these units can be had for cheap, and the chips, some of which are still available new (I suspect through vendors who've sourced them from server farms who bought up bigger than their needs required or who may just have the old stock lying around), are also cheap. You'd be looking at somewhere from $180 to $240 US each for a total of 12 cores, and yes, DP uses all cores and hyper threading (24 virtual cores in this case) efficiently.

Pop in some extra RAM along with the SSDs you mentioned and you'd be good to go. The performance should be roughly equivalent to the top-end nMPs (Darth's Helmet / trash can).

The only caveat is that, assuming you were considering the MOTU AVB line of interfaces, you'd have to employ the USB connection or install an AVB-capable ethernet card in the machine. The USB drivers will impose 4ms of latency whilst the e-net card connection will add 9ms to your throughput figure.

Assuming you can live with 128 / 256 buffer sizes, you should be fine with the USB protocol, provided you're willing to work at 44.1 or 48kHz. If you require higher sample rates, the e-net card would be your only option, with the added bonus that you'd be able to add interfaces up to a total of 128 simultaneous inputs and outputs. It sounds to me like the 64 I/O (simultaneous) limit of the USB route would be just fine for you. This is the way I'm going as I'm comfortable at 44.1kHz.

The nMP option, IMHO, blows out ridiculously budget-wise when one considers the RAM and attendant peripherals required, and unless you're willing to shell out for the top-of-the-line models, any possible gains in CPU grunt will be negligible if any. If you require high-end graphics performance, you could always slap a card into the desktop unit.

I'm reluctant to recommend the iMac because this sort of hot-rodding cannot be implemented as far as I'm aware and your plan to go a little "nuts" with VIs would surely see your wrestling with the same latency vs CPU-usage equation you're faced with now. The 12-core option will certainly buy you a whole lot of headroom in this regard.

Hope this helps, Raymond. Specifics as to which Mac Pro model to go for might best be answered by someone such as HCMarkus, who'll no doubt make an esteemed appearance shortly.

[mikehalloran]

As a rule of thumb, multiple instances (not tracks) of VIs will each use a core. So, if you are using many, a 12 core will lighten the load and will be faster than a 6 core. One instance, many tracks uses only one core. There are many threads on this.

Mac Pro tower or new Mac Pro will depend on your peripherals, really. Either will be faster than a 4 core iMac. The nMP will be faster with regard to TB peripherals over the SATA II bus speed limitation but is real world performance that much different? Again, it depends.

A new iMac with a 1T blade will be very fast, have Thunderbolt and perform better than what you have but is it enough? If you aren't using enough instances to max out the cores, it might do the trick but you can update the one you have for far less. Real world performance won't be noticeably different unless, like I, you do not have Thunderbolt (pre-2011 iMac).

The fastest iMac with an SSD will help but not solve your basic problem. Raising your playback buffer will but you know that already.

You can upgrade your current iMac to an internal 2T SSD for $875 ($450 for 1T) including the drive, the temp sensor or special cable (depends if you want to keep your current HD installed or not) NV RAM battery and tool kit. Anyway, it's doable and inexpensive and those who've done it find they can load more VIs without choking.

I suppose I should start a new thread with the parts list (depends on the year) and links to instructions instructions and videos. Updating iMacs isn't really that hard but there are things to know.

[monkey man]

... of course I expected the esteemed Sir Mike to grace us with his authoritative Mac-Guru greatness too...

[braxtonraymond]

Wow, thanks for more perspectives I hadn't thought about! This is great. Please keep it coming.

I may have a friend wanting to unload a cheese grater actually.

My current machine is actually a macbook pro, so any of these recommendations would be great. One additional reason I would go for a new machine (of any flavor) is that I can get 0% financing for it over 3 years, whereas buying used I'll have to pay up front or put it on credit.

Thanks again. Also, the information on instances vs. tracks was very helpful. I've been more on the analog side of music my entire career (I've been a professional woodwind player for 19 years) and even as a composer, my mentor has me working in a very old school fashion with score paper and pencil, then mocking up later. (Which definitely has been good for me). So, all this info is great and so helpful. If you're in Toronto ever, I'll buy you a beer.

[monkey man]

You could use the 0% financing to fly me to Toronto and I'll shout you the beer... possibly even two! LOL

Probably not a fair suggestion; the tickets from Down Under to you are pricey to say the least.

IMHO, Raymond, you'd surely be better off spending a third or even much less on a s/h cheese grater than shelling out for a trash can and all the external chassis / peripherals you'd need just to get you to where you'd be with said grater. The iMac, as Mike and I suggested, might buy you time / CPU headroom, but the question would be how much of each. The 12C option I mentioned seriously would take you as near to the stratosphere as you'd need to get in the foreseeable future... most likely far beyond the horsepower you'd need, but as we all know, too much horsepower is a problem we'd all like to have. It sure beats the alternative.

I'd like to keep it coming as per your request, but honestly, this is all I have. I did the upgrade and it was easy. I bought the T-shirt and threw the complimentary fridge magnet onto the door and I'm about done. Only thing that's changed is that my Mac's way zippier in the Finder now. I haven't even tested it in DP, but those who've benchmarked this sort of upgrade have been happy without exception. Apparently you can expect, as I suggested earlier, performance similar to the top-of-the-line nMPs, and you know what they cost, right? If you haven't already, look up the price of the fastest unit specced with the RAM you'll need and... buy me another beer... I mean, flight ticket.

I've been looking for a link to the thread you'll want to check out. Here 'tis!

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=58848

You can thank me with that ticket later!

[mikehalloran]

It was 5am Nashville time when I posted that, 3am real time where I live.

Now I'm stuck in Phoenix with a one hour delay for my flight home and the secure wi-fi I need to get any work done doesn't work. It will let me connect to here, though.

I missed the MacBook Pro part. If you have a mechanical HD, throwing an SSD into it will max out its performance. If it already has an SSD, then there's no more you can do except to see if you are really using all four cores and up your buffer.

In any case, an iMac will increase performance over what you have. Don't even consider anything less than the 1T SSD and max the onboard (soldered) RAM. Again, would that be enough?

I'm looking at these same choices. I have decided to update my 2010 iMac later this year with a 2T Samsung 850. I know it will be enough as I'm already running a 1T SSD via eSATA. $20K worth of emergency plumbing where I live and at my rental shot my nMP budget for this year. Even though I don't really need it (yet), that's what I want. Currently, I'm running two additional screens off my 27" iMac just to do my day job. It works but Dad feels the need for more horsepower. I am not interested in the additional BTU output of the cheese grater solution.

[HCMarkus]

That would be a Samsung 850, I'm sure Mike.

Take a gander at this thread Braxton. Lots of folks have done the Mac Pro 4,1 or 5,1 upgrade to 6 or 12 core with great success, including me!

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=58848

You can currently build a 5,1 hex 3.33 for about $1k, including memory and SSD using a 4,1 quad as a starting point. It will Geekbench between 15k and 16k when completed.

Mac Pro 4,1 $550 http://www.macofalltrades.com/Mac-Pro-1 ... c-e09a.htm

Xeon 5680 $135 http://www.ebay.com/itm/INTEL-XEON-X568 ... 4881b296ad

850 Evo $104 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... details&Q=

OWC Memory 16 GB 1333 $168 http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/M ... 333-memory

[mikehalloran]

Yes, Samsung like the three I have already. Of course you are right. I am tired. Thought I'd get in a nap on the plane but no. Off to my rehearsal tonight.

Good thing I don't have the launch codes.

[musicman691]

In any case, an iMac will increase performance over what you have. Don't even consider anything less than the 1T SSD and max the onboard (soldered) RAM. Again, would that be enough?

The ram is only soldered in in the current 21.5 inch iMac; the 27 inch still has user installable ram.

[mikehalloran]

In any case, an iMac will increase performance over what you have. Don't even consider anything less than the 1T SSD and max the onboard (soldered) RAM. Again, would that be enough?

The ram is only soldered in in the current 21.5 inch iMac; the 27 inch still has user installable ram.

Correct. I was confusing the iMac and the MacBook Pro again. It doesn't change my recommendation, however.

[musicman691]

And despite the looks, the recent iMacs CAN be taken apart. Here's a link to a tear-down from ifixit for the 27 inch:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+In ... down/17828
This one's for the 21.5 inch:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+In ... down/17829

[mikehalloran]

I wish that those iFixit pictograms for iMacs were done by people after they had done a few. The first time, by following those instructions, I added an hour to the job.

I have now done many and do not recommend breaking into a 2012 or later without a helper. The 2011 and earlier can be done in an hour or so unless you follow iFixit. The OWC videos are much better.

Having said that, I still recommend getting a new iMac set up the way you want. Then none of this is an issue.

I did a 24" iMac yesterday in 45 minutes with a helper. As long as you ignore the instructions to disconnect the microphone (an absolute PIA to disconnect and reconnect when done) you're good. The mic cable is long enough to flip the bezel without disconnecting that cable. Also, prop up the screen and do not remove the tape for those cables -- they can be left in place.