If space not an issue, install app data at default location?

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Tue May 26, 2015 9:23 pm

I am finding more an more installers insist on installing all app data (in most cases, read this as sample data in their proprietary format) on the system drive, and even if you can jump through hoops to move and redirect it later, often the next update will obliterate this move or cause other problems.

Given this issue, have people found it best to leave the default data path -- especially in cases where it either can't be set at installation time, or botches up in various ways and isn't reliable after trying to rectify paths post-installation?

I am speaking in the context of a fast SSD system drive. These have usually been too expensive to buy in large sizes, and apps themselves (as well as plug-ins) continue to grow, so even spending a huge amount of time moving things off the system drive only bides time anymore.

Given that prices WILL come down, is this a lost battle not worth fighting anymore? From a stability and performance point of view, is there an advantage in doing whatever possible to keep all app data on a separate drive?

Up until a few years ago, many of us made less than ideal choices in other areas (such as choice of sample rate and/or bit depth) due to the expense (at the time) of mechanical hard drive space. As the main reason I have tried to keep all app data on separate drives has been that it adds up quickly and gets larger all the time and thus will lead to a quicker need for a larger system drive, I'm wondering whether this old set of criteria is out of date at this point and whether there is no other reason to do this. In fact, maybe performance would even improve in many cases vs. reaching across drives for app data.

Obviously the bulk of our sample libraries in more general formats (e.g. Kontakt) and stuff like Vienna Symphonic Library, where the vendors have of course assumed from the get go that you will store the libraries on a separate drive, should remain so. So that isn't my question.

I can't even install Studio One v3 in full yet because it requires 36 GB of system drive space! Rhapsody Pro can't be installed either as it does really bizarre and incorrect stuff (including hiding the installed files, which are put in a temp directory) if you specify an off-system drive.

Having a better feel for what is best practice in the current context, will help me decide how big my next system drive upgrade needs to be. I'm already seeing almost 100 GB worth of data associated with installers that I can't currently run, that I doubt would be worth the effort to try to trick off the system drive, and certainly it couldn't be done until AFTER installation anyway.

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Tue May 26, 2015 9:47 pm

For me it's interesting you bring this up,I've been setting up my new Mac and I am leaning towards installing Alchemy and it's soundbanks on the new Macs SSD boot drive.
With Camel Audios demise I want to try to limit future problems occurring.
On my previous Mac I had the Alchemy soundbanks on a dedicated hd going against Camels advice and had a few install related issues with Alchemy.
A few very knowledgeable people have suggested setting up Alchemy as Camel suggests will minimize possible problems later.
Without Camel support or access to content after June I feel like the safest approach is to reinstall all of my Camel content on the SSD and reinstall as recommended on the old Mac also all on the boot drive.
I will also be backing everything Camel,installers content etc.... up on a dedicated hard drive.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Tue May 26, 2015 9:52 pm

I suppose it all depends on how much stuff you have and where it needs to reside. Previous to my nMP I had a 2TB boot drive partitioned with the system and then non-music/video files. All projects on other internal drives.

When I updated the machine, the biggest internal drive available was a 1TB SSD. It has all my apps and system stuff along with non-music/video files - as before. It's partitioned also contain my VI libraries. At present it only 1/2 full, so there's plenty of room for expansion.

I did move a bunch of music related apps within that drive to a folder called MUSIC APPS, just so I could find them fast., but a few didn't like that. DP installed the 8.04 update in the main Applications folder, so I left it there. A better choice would have been to tag the music apps, but until one misbehaves, I'll keep them where they are.

I do miss having my 4 internal drive bays. Now my Time Machine drives (I use two in tandem) are on externals (USB3 dock and FW enclosure, respectively) and my projects are on a FW enclosure. I have a TB dock with a couple of more SATA drives with a bootable system and a spare drive waiting to go to work when needed. All are either 1 or 2 TB.

Eventually, I want to replace all the externals with a drive bay housing 4 or 5 SSD of 1 to 2 TB each, but for the moment, I have enough drive space. I still have the 2008 8 core as a backup with about 6TB total intuit machine. I could press that into networked service if need be, but things are purring along at present (for the most part).

I'm not sure I answered your questions, but if I can offer anything else let me know.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Tue May 26, 2015 9:58 pm

Two very helpful answers already; thanks a lot!

I will definitely heed the advice about Alchemy. I hadn't even thought about that one as I had forgotten they recommend the system drive!

Interestingly, this means I can update my system drive earlier than later, as I am once again at the limit for my sample libraries (this happens roughly every nine to twelve months at this point). I was going to have to buy a 6 TB drive next!

I still need to finish mixing and mastering this local band's album first before I risk chaos on my computer, but it looks like I'll go ahead with the largest SSD I can afford for my next system drive vs. merely doubling my current 120 GB drive capacity.

BKK-OZ · Post by **BKK-OZ** » Tue May 26, 2015 10:11 pm

Kontakt (and all NI apps with libraries) can be a real pain if you are using a non-default location for samples, etc. When I did my last Kontakt update, it cost me ~1 day to get everything pointed in the right direction and I had to trash preferences, rebuild the db, etc.

I'm not saying don't do it, but you have to be careful. I organize my libraries with great care and consistency so that I can use my external RAID array for all that stuff - requires discipline.

cuttime · Post by **cuttime** » Tue May 26, 2015 10:13 pm

kgdrum wrote: On my previous Mac I had the Alchemy soundbanks on a dedicated hd going against Camels advice and had a few install related issues with Alchemy.

I didn't even know this was possible, as I tried, on several occasions, to do it! They insisted that the installer was on the Desktop of the root drive, and, as I recall, was not even given the option of moving the samples to an external drive, or any non-root installations. I wonder if the installers were changed around 2010-2012.

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Tue May 26, 2015 10:25 pm

cuttime wrote:
kgdrum wrote: On my previous Mac I had the Alchemy soundbanks on a dedicated hd going against Camels advice and had a few install related issues with Alchemy.
I didn't even know this was possible, as I tried, on several occasions, to do it! They insisted that the installer was on the Desktop of the root drive, and, as I recall, was not even given the option of moving the samples to an external drive, or any non-root installations. I wonder if the installers were changed around 2010-2012.

I got Alchemy August 2013 so maybe they changed the installers a bit by the time I started using it.
Camel support still recommended installing everything on the boot drive but a user could create an alias for the Alchemy content on a dedicated hard drive.

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Tue May 26, 2015 10:59 pm

There are things one can do to fool your system drive into thinking that your libraries are there while they reside elsewhere.

Aliases are one way and they're easy, having been introduced in System 7. Unfortunately, these don't always do the intended job.

There are better ways, transparent to the OS but they involve a bit of courage and the willingness to get cozy with Terminal and the Command Line interface. I'll see if I can knock out a foolproof tutorial in the next few days with commands that work in Yosemite. UNIX has some very powerful features that work in OS X.

frankf · Post by **frankf** » Wed May 27, 2015 5:27 am

BKK-OZ wrote:Kontakt (and all NI apps with libraries) can be a real pain if you are using a non-default location for samples, etc. When I did my last Kontakt update, it cost me ~1 day to get everything pointed in the right direction and I had to trash preferences, rebuild the db, etc.

I'm not saying don't do it, but you have to be careful. I organize my libraries with great care and consistency so that I can use my external RAID array for all that stuff - requires discipline.

Kontakt library locations can actually be redirected individually from the Library tab of the browser. I found it pretty easy when I moved to SSDs. That said I keep a text file with all library locations, not only Kontakt, accessible from a DP Clipping I call Help

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:21 am

As a general rule, I've never ever allowed sample content in my main system drive. IMO, it makes backups bigger, and in general not as convenient as having only personal and system files in the system disk (in case of restoring, cloning or swapping disks).

It's been always quite easy for me to move them to external HDs, most via aliases, like Mike Halloran suggests.

Spectrasonics, MOTU, Superior drummer, VSL, are a piece of cake to move. Kontakt involved a few more clicks, but I managed to separate everything successfully from the very beginning of the installation.

To tell you the truth, I have yet to see a library that doesn't give you clear options on how to avoid installing the content in your system disk.

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:36 am

I've been keeping all samples off the system partition, and haven't had too many problems. When I did, and aliases didn't work, I was able to use symbolic links. An advantage of symbolic links is that they haven't become huge like aliases have in recent OS X versions.

You can create these with Terminal, or get this. http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/41493/symlinker

billf · Post by **billf** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:58 am

I do not like having tons of sample data on my boot drive, so I keep most of them on a separate drive. Kontakt, as mentioned, tends to be the most problematic for me, but is usually resolved with a few extra clicks when first launching the related VI.

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Wed May 27, 2015 9:23 am

BKK-OZ wrote:Kontakt (and all NI apps with libraries) can be a real pain if you are using a non-default location for samples, etc. When I did my last Kontakt update, it cost me ~1 day to get everything pointed in the right direction and I had to trash preferences, rebuild the db, etc.

I was puzzled by this. The Kontakt startup guide actually recommends putting libraries on a dedicated drive, and has a step in the installation process to support this with a dialog to choose a location. I followed this, and never had Kontakt not find the libraries. I suppose if you install them on the system drive, then move them, there would be problems, but ???

billf · Post by **billf** » Wed May 27, 2015 9:55 am

bayswater wrote:
BKK-OZ wrote:Kontakt (and all NI apps with libraries) can be a real pain if you are using a non-default location for samples, etc. When I did my last Kontakt update, it cost me ~1 day to get everything pointed in the right direction and I had to trash preferences, rebuild the db, etc.
I was puzzled by this. The Kontakt startup guide actually recommends putting libraries on a dedicated drive, and has a step in the installation process to support this with a dialog to choose a location. I followed this, and never had Kontakt not find the libraries. I suppose if you install them on the system drive, then move them, there would be problems, but ???

It can definitely be an issue. I have lost count on how many times I've had to remind Kontakt where to find the libraries. I've come to "expect" it as part of the update process.

musicman691 · Post by **musicman691** » Fri May 29, 2015 7:55 am

bayswater wrote:
BKK-OZ wrote:Kontakt (and all NI apps with libraries) can be a real pain if you are using a non-default location for samples, etc. When I did my last Kontakt update, it cost me ~1 day to get everything pointed in the right direction and I had to trash preferences, rebuild the db, etc.
I was puzzled by this. The Kontakt startup guide actually recommends putting libraries on a dedicated drive, and has a step in the installation process to support this with a dialog to choose a location. I followed this, and never had Kontakt not find the libraries. I suppose if you install them on the system drive, then move them, there would be problems, but ???

I have yet to have issues with Kontakt not finding libraries, even when I switch drives from my main external Thunderbolt connected drive to my backup FW800 drives (I only have one powered up at a time). What does have issues is Sampletank 3; it has to rebuild it's database each time. Another that has issues are the Play 4 libraries; I just have to repoint the Play engine to the folder the samples are in.

Reason 7 is interesting in that I have to keep the factory and orkester refills on the drive R7 installs them to but I can put any other refills wherever I want them.

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