backing up my system

[greg oakley]

Hello. Basic question here. I've been struggling a bit with updating my system and before I update OS 10.3.9 to 10.5.6 on my older power mac G5 I wanted to back up my system because of all the work I've done so far. It would kill me to lose it. What I have to use for backup is a Glyph project M older external HD. I was able to mount the drive and drag the desktop icons of my G5 HD and audio files so that they appear on the Glyph window when I open the drive. And what I need to know before I proceed is:

Did I truly transfer these to the Glyph or did I just create shortcuts?

The Mac HD icon appeared immediately when I dragged it into the Glyph, but some picture files took significantly longer and the progress bar appeared when I dragged that file. It did not when I dragged the Mac HD icon.

Thank you,
Greg

[bayswater]

While you have probably copied the actual files to the new drive (not just shortcuts), it is possible you have not created a usable backup by simply dragging and dropping files. You need a backup applications that will create something you can restore. The exception: if all you need backed up is the documents created by the save command of applications, making copies will be fine.

[HCMarkus]

Clone your system drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or Super Duper or make an image of it with Apple's Disc Utility. MIght be worth investing in a new internal HD for your new system... put the new drive in your Mac, clone your original to the new drive, then remove your original and stash it away for safe keeping. Then upgrade your clone.

[mikehalloran]

Do not "drag and drop". DP files will have problems if you ever use those copies.

I'm not a big fan of cloning a drive but this is one time that I agree. Either CCC or SuperDuper! will do the trick - the free version is fine. I don't know if the current versions work in OS 10.3.x - if not, there are older versions that will.

Once you have upgraded to 10.5, set up a drive for Time Machine. There are many ways to do it but, without knowing what your hardware setup is, I don't know which way(s) to suggest.

[Klaus]

Do not "drag and drop". DP files will have problems if you ever use those copies.

I'm not a big fan of cloning a drive but this is one time that I agree. Either CCC or SuperDuper! will do the trick - the free version is fine. I don't know if the current versions work in OS 10.3.x - if not, there are older versions that will.

Once you have upgraded to 10.5, set up a drive for Time Machine. There are many ways to do it but, without knowing what your hardware setup is, I don't know which way(s) to suggest.

Hmmhh...
I drag and drop DP project folders onto other disks, and never have a problem, 'get info' shows exactly the same size in bits...
Talking about mac formated disks

Did I miss something ?

Klaus

[Klaus]

BTW, re : Bootdrive copies :

I am using DiskUtility since some time now to clone,
exact copies - block level copies - can be obtained when

1. booted from an external drive or from another bootpartition on the drive
2. using the same OS level, i.e. 10.4.x and 10.4.x,
10.3.x and 10.3.x, 10.5.x and 10.5.x, 10.6.x and 10.6.x
( booted from an external drive )
Don't know how DiskUtility behaves on higher Systems...
maybe others chime in ?

Best

Klaus

[mikehalloran]

Did I miss something ?

Yes. Eventually you might use those copies on another Mac or you will get a new Mac and copy the files over in the misguided belief in a clean install. Beginning with DP 7.1, this can cause major problems.

Depending on the version of DP you are using, there are major permission and other issues including missing header info when you drag and drop DP files from one computer to the other or use copies that were not zipped first.

Clone, use Migration Assistant, Time Machine or archive by zipping before you copy. Plenty of threads on this.

Been there, done that, fixed the problems on my system and if you count the number of threads where I've helped others get things working again, written the book.

The advice to clone is correct in 10.3.x, however it's done. Do not drag and drop DP files unless you zip them first.

[FMiguelez]

I'm not a big fan of cloning a drive but this is one time that I agree.

May I ask why you're not a big fan of cloning a drive, Mike? What alternatives do you have then?

You're obviously very knowledgeable about hardware, so I'd be interested in knowing your reasons.

[bayswater]

I drag and drop DP project folders onto other disks, and never have a problem, 'get info' shows exactly the same size in bits...

Same here. I've used Finder copying to move DP, Cubase and Logic projects around among several Macs, between external drives, USB thumb, and SD drives, etc. I keep a mirror drive of current projects, and old projects on an offline drive, all with drag and drop. All Mac formatted and never seen a problem.

[Klaus]

Sorry to hear mikehalloran...
I know you are very skilled

- I have only 1 admin acount
- Mac formated drives ( ignore ownership )
- opening even DP3 files
- DP 7.24
- max. OS 10.6.8, min. 10.4.11

DU tested, DW tested

Only time problems showed up is
with WIN formatted drives...
there I zip first

If you like, could you elaborate more, ?

Thank you and

best regards

Klaus

[greg oakley]

First of all, thank you all for taking your time to reply.

I believe I was on the wrong track. I have some homework to do. Disaster averted. I'll post a short progress note when I'm sure I'm on the right track. I'll also try a more thorough search.

Greg

[mikehalloran]

Klaus, I don't know your system well enough since you haven't listed it. If that's the only Mac you will ever own, no problem.

The OP was talking about backing up files before upgrading the OS. I don't know what you are doing except implying-that, somehow, I must be wrong because it doesn't affect you.

There are two separate issues and they should not be confused with each other.

The first involves drag and drop DP files into a backup. Don't. Part of the reasons are DP, beginning with 7.1, other parts are changes to the OS beginning with 10.5 and 10.6. DP 7.12 is very sensitive to permission issue, even more so with 7.2. Same with the OS.

BTW, don't be surprised if, after updating to 10.5, you can't open DP. There's a tech bulletin about finding hidden AUTH files, deleting then repairing permissions. Most of us forget about this since we went to OS 10.5 years ago.

Running your files from another drive attached to your system is a separate issue and I wasn't addressing that at all. I'm still not.

The second is cloning. I don't like it for two reasons: a) it can push corrupt data onto another drive b) it has no problem writing to hard drives with problems. B is a bigger issue than A.

There are myriad posts from people who don't like Time Machine because of errors that sometimes occur during the process. They have no problem with cloning. Over the years I discovered that oh ... about 100% of those problems involved bad hard drives or corrupt data - the ratio I have observed is 95% bad hard drives to 5% corrupt files. I have learned that Time Machine errors always indicates a problem that should be addressed. No exceptions. Because cloning works with bad data and garbage hard drives, I consider it a bad idea.

Every time I replace a bad HD on a school computer after cloning was successful, I'm reminded of its flaws. Those whose sell cloning applications tell you how good it is. That's their business, not mine.

If you get error messages from TM, you have a bad hard drive. Unfortunately, SMART tests often allow drives in terrible shape to pass. In addition, SMART cannot be read except via EIDE (PSATA) or SATA / eSATA. It cannot be read through USB, FW or TB. There is a company working on this but they have yet to make it work. TechTool Pro can read and graph some of these "pass" drives so you can see the problems that TM found. Time Machine is the Mac equivalent of the canary in the coal mine,

If a backup takes forever and the indicator says it will take days, months or years, open Console and see what file is being written. It could be that the drive you are backing up is corrupt or could be the file itself. Last time, I found that something had messed up Finale 2006 Help files. Since I was using Finale 2011, trashing Finale 2006 fixed the problem.

Before OS 10.5, you either cloned or used proprietary backup software - restoring was always iffy. Cloning is your best bet. Cloning is good when setting up new machines with pre installed systems. I use it in school computer labs where I wipe the HDs every year. It's great for that.

[Klaus]

By backing up files, I meant DP projects... never a problem with drag and drop...
Even copiyng some prefs / DP presets by drag and drop, no problems
Cloning :
I clone with Disk Utility onto an wiped partition ( wiped with Disk Utility or iPartition ), tested with DiskWarrior
The clone masters seem to be ok, since no problems show up...( block level copies )
What I've read :
I 'think' it is good practice, to upgrade the OS first, then the apps,
not ?

Best

Klaus

[greg oakley]

I promised a progress post. I followed the advice you all gave me that I could, and I believe I have somewhat successfully duplicated and backed up my files and system to the Glyph firewire drive, a USB flash drive and a G4 powerbook. The files open wierd on the G5, but I can get it to work. I also went to the refurbished list on the Apple site and bought a used quad processor iMac with a 3 T hard drive and 16 MG RAM. Hope I said all that right. I bought a superdrive and a firewire/thunderbolt adapter. I'm going to try to install the latest version of DP into the iMac and transfer my work into the new system. Then I'll see what happens. I don't have enough basic computer knowledge to do all this this really, but with a little help here and there maybe you guys will be willing to get me where I need to be. (Tell me if I'm posting in the wrong forum now.)
Greg

[Julia123]

Whew, glad I read this! Gearing up to get a new computer in a couple of months and starting to archive things as I go.