current Mac Mini DP torture test; anyone done one?

[EMRR]

With the writing on the wall for PCI slots, I wonder if anyone has done a DP specific torture test on the current Mac Mini, similar to the PT torture tests described over here:

http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthrea ... post253380

Tons of tracks, tons of plugs, the sort of thing that would cripple my aging G5, which is fine for most sessions at 96K/24, but groans on some projects. I'd like to see a real torture test with some similar CPU intensive demands. Anyone know of a DP specific test? If I'm looking at a complete system replacement, I'd like a much more educated guess about my real need for power.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I'll always choose a desktop machine over a mini, laptop, or iMac. Aside from expandability and better specs overall (when compared to other models in the same generation) the desktop machines are generally better built and in my experience, last far longer under constant use.

I know that doesn't answer your question at all but it does address one aspect about the idea of stress testing different machines in comparison to each other. At least I hope it does.

[EMRR]

Sure, that makes sense. One aspect I encounter is remote recording, and I pondered for a long time the possibility of a crossroads where studio and remote systems might realistically be one and the same.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

If only Apple would add a holograph screen or a projector to the rear if the new machines, the upcoming Mac Pros would do nicely as mobile desktops. Not a bad idea. Mini built in projection systems.

[mikehalloran]

I agree with MLC but the bare boned Mini will run circles around your G5.

Both he and I upgraded from a G5, btw. He to a used Mac Pro system; I to a new 27" iMac. We both posted extensively about that time and I am remembering that he spent a bit more than I did and got a much beefier system than mine. His needs are also more intensive.

Both of us being chatty on these boards, it's no secret that we a) are pretty satisfied with our current setups and b) are looking towards upgrading in the future. I am not in a hurry, I can't speak for him but his posts don't make me think he is either.

My day job was as much a driving factor in my decision and budget was a prime consideration - more so than now. That said, I had no freakin' idea how much better things were overall once I upgraded from my G5: DP, Word, Internet, Salesforce over GoogleChrome (day gig), my lower air conditioning bills... Seriously, my quality of life was improved by upgrading - I am handicapped and am not engaging in hyperbole here.

Anyway, if using lots of VIs, look for a Mac Pro 3.1 or later. Your VI and Time Machine drives will just slide right in.

If budget is really tight, the best Mini is an iMac. Plan on a TB drive for your VIs and a Time Capsule or another external for Time Machine and budget for it (then look again at a used Pro where you can put those drives inside). Whichever way you go, spend the extra $200 for the i7 chip - DP really benefits.

My iMac was the right machine for me and my next Mac may also be one. I am also looking at a late model Pro or even the new one later this year. My job is better and my daughter graduated college so money isn't so tight. Also, my 2010 is working great for me so I am in no hurry.

A 2011 27" i7 iMac has TB and FireWire. Just saying.

[EMRR]

I'e always assumed even the lowliest machine would run circles around the G5, I'm just curious about real limits. I'm still PCIe, but have thought about going with a different interface that would be less cumbersome for remote work.....but I don't want to give anything up.

I don't use VI's or MIDI. I do track everything 96/24 and frequently end up with 2-3 plugs on every track. Many sessions start with more than 16 inputs, and I can have up to 32 analog outputs running on an average day. The G5 is really happy with all of that at 48K, not so much at 96K. (A moratorium is hereby drawn on comments regarding the benefits of high sample rates)

The G5 with the MOTU PCI card processing can do a lot more than my '08 2.4 MBP; it usually can't even play sessions done on the G5, given the loss of PCI card processing. This difference I can't quantify against current machine benchmarks, since I have no idea how to add the PCI workload to a machine benchmark. That considered, how does a non-PCI loaded machine stack up against the same machine with a MOTU PCI card attached? Etc etc; as always it's tough to make a truly educated guess against the myriad variables when there's no representative systems in my area to go try in person.

To that I'll add that I do make a living from this, but not much of one, so any cost savings that cross the same bridge successfully are of utmost concern, and upgrade cycles are extremely long.

[bayswater]

If budget is really tight, the best Mini is an iMac.

Please elaborate. Other than the monitor, what does a i7 iMac give you that a i7 Mini is missing?

[mikehalloran]

Other than the monitor, what does a i7 iMac give you that a i7 Mini is missing?

Good question. Speed, storage, graphics and memory.

Basing it on the 2012 27" iMac

First there is the monitor. Same monitor is $999 for the Mini - except that it meets the 2011 monitor specs. There is no separate monitor meeting the better 2012 iMac specs.

The 27" iMac monitor is being fed by a much better dedicated graphics card NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M with 512MB for the 209GHz i5; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 675MX with 1GB for the other three - the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB GDDR5 is optional. The Mini uses the Intel HD Graphics 4000 which is built into the i5/i7 CPU and is a gaming chip set without its own VRAM. It does suport up to three monitors but a high end video card, it is not even close.

Then you have the faster i5 and i7 chips. 2.9 and 3.2GHz i5 and 3.4GHz i7 for the iMac vs 2.5GHz i5 and 2.3GHz or 2.6GHz i7 on the Mini. An i7's FPU performance makes it faster for DP over an i5 by quite a bit - spend the extra $200.

The iMac HD is 7200 rpm and 1T or 3T with Fusion drives optional while your choices on the Mini are one or two 1T 5400rpm HDs (The optional SSDs are correspondingly larger).

Memory: Mini: 2 slots, total 16G; 27" iMac: 4 slots, total 32G (for 2012, Apple and OWC agree on the maximum RAM).

[mikehalloran]

Let's take the Mini i7 2.3. I selected the 1T Fusion drive (not available on the server!) and 16G Ram for $300 (same price as OWC - amazing) plus the Apple TB Monitor, a numeric keyboard and trackpad). 16G RAM is adequate for many of us running DP.

$2,466 as above
$2,666 if I had used the Mini Server instead. The main drive would be much, much slower but now there would be two of them - the other could be used to host VIs, I suppose.

Compare it to an iMac i7. 3.2GHz i7, 16GHz Ram (only $200 upgrade), same 1T Fusion drive, same keyboard & trackpad (no extra cost).

$2,649 30% faster CPU, 1G VRAM on a high performance video card, the ability to add 16G more RAM, could have tripled the HD size

Could the Mini be less? Certainly, cheaper keyboard & mouse, monitor, slower HD, less RAM (would have lowered the iMac but not by as much). If you tinker, you can load a Mini with two larger SSDs than you can get from Apple - not cheap but if the other limitations aren't an issue,

Since Time Machine does not need anything fast. a $299 2T Time Capsule works great wireless or via ethernet (last generation is $269 in the refurb store).

For VIs, a Thunderbolt drive gives you as much performance as you can want. You can get external TB solutions under $400 for 2T from many vendors. 1T USB3/Thunderbolt starts at $199 - street prices are a little lower.
http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/pro ... e?fnode=5f

[EMRR]

I suspect video capability is one of my chief bottlenecks, and probably wise to go with imac versus mini on that front.

[bayswater]

Thanks Mike. That's a pretty thorough and convincing answer. It will be interesting to see the evolution of the Mini in the new product line when the Pro is shipping.

[mikehalloran]

Thanks Mike. That's a pretty thorough and convincing answer. It will be interesting to see the evolution of the Mini in the new product line when the Pro is shipping.

Gazing into my crystal ball, I predict a bump for both either in the fall or winter. Perhaps speed, possibly lower priced SSDs?

The biggest update, I predict, will be to the new wireless spec that's been announced for the new MB Air and Time Capsule. My son-in-law was one of the testers and tells me it really is is faster than Gigabyte Ethernet. For most of us this really isn't an issue but for anyone building a new office or studio or ... It just gives us more flexibility - especially those doing distributed computing.

I've already bought the new Time Capsule and will get a new laptop later this year so I can do some of my work from my easy chair.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

You got crystal balls?

[Nibiru]

So glad this thread was started as I've had these same questions in mind for a while. Just out of curiosity, being that I do zero video work, how critical is the graphics card if I connect a Samsumg monitor via HDMI? I'm on a 2008 non unibody MBP with 4gb of ram, so I feel a new Mini would crush my current setup. Just wondering about the video issue mentioned before. Is the Apple monitor the only monitor reccomended with the Mini? It just seems like getting away with murder getting the Mini. For someone like me who uses about 5-10 VI's + about 30+ tracks of audio w/plugs, I would like to think the Mini could handle all that and way more. Am I way off here?

[mikehalloran]

You monitor should work. That isn't the issue. Is it as beautiful as the Apple? I don't know but, again, that is not the issue.

The issue is the graphics engine, not your monitor nor Apple's. Many threads about poor screen draw performance with DP on Mac Pros that was fixed by upgrading to video cards on par with the performance of the 1G card found in the 27" iMac from 2010 on. Since the Pro is the only one with an upgradable graphics engine, that's the only data we DP users have to go on.

The Mini has no VRAM and borrows slower system RAM as it thinks it's needed. 30 tracks is a load on the graphics engine as many users can tell you. BTW, the FPU performance of the i7 affects screen performance, too - I can vouch for that.

Will the Mini work? Yes, absolutely.

So, is the latest Mini up to your task - will it perform as smoothly and crisply as a 27" iMac with a 1G V card? I don't know. Barring an A/B, I don't think anyone can tell you. The only reason I know the i5/i7 is because my wife has a 2011 i5 (I was looking to swap to get TB but was spoiled by my i7).

You might want to look at a 2011 iMac. The Apple store gets these refurb now and then. I am one of many DP users who loves having a second monitor for the mixer and other screens. Just sayin...