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Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

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Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:26 am

Is there a way to start a new measure (at beat 1) anywhere on the timeline? For example, I'd like to start 26|1|000 in an obscure location in measure 25 WITHOUT doing a tempo change. Another way of asking is can I delete measures from the timeline?

If I'm going about this stupidly, I'm open to recommendations.

Edit: Clarification:
Here's what I'm trying to do musically. I have a song playing (3/4 time, 59bpm) where I fade out into ambient noise (a blurry transition in the film). When the next scene starts, I'd basically like to resume the song with same tempo and time signature. However, when I resume the music, I'd prefer to start on the 1st beat of a measure. The next scene starts mid-measure and not on a beat.
Last edited by PoliticalBonobo on Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby buzzsmith » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:45 am

If I'm understanding you and not knowing what is in bar 25, you could make bar 25's time signature 2/4, 3/8, 13/16, etc. (whatever feels right) and then revert back to whatever time signature bar 26 needs to be.

I don't know of any way to superimpose another measure's beat 1 within the preceding measure.

I (we) could maybe be of more help if you can explain exactly and musically what you want to accomplish.

Hope this helps!

Buzzy




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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby FMiguelez » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:48 am

Yes.
You can delete measures from the timeline with the Snip command over a region in the Conductor Track. Depending on what you wnat to do, you could select only some tracks or absolutely eveything.

I don't think I understood the rest of your question. Can you clarify?
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby buzzsmith » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:35 am

FM, the way I read it (we do need clarity), was I don't think he wants to delete what's in a measure but to delete an actual measure. Like measure 23-24 and then right to 26 ("deleting" 25). Not sure why he needs to, but that was my take on the inquiry!

Staying busy and happy, I'm hoping?!

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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:39 am

buzzsmith wrote:If I'm understanding you and not knowing what is in bar 25, you could make bar 25's time signature 2/4, 3/8, 13/16, etc. (whatever feels right) and then revert back to whatever time signature bar 26 needs to be.



That's a good idea and would work. However, in my case, I'd like to make a frame at 25|2|103 start over at beat one, which I guess would be 26|1|000.

See clarification above.
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:41 am

FMiguelez wrote:Yes.
You can delete measures from the timeline with the Snip command over a region in the Conductor Track. Depending on what you wnat to do, you could select only some tracks or absolutely eveything.

I don't think I understood the rest of your question. Can you clarify?


Yep, as Buzzy mentioned, I was trying to remove a measure count. See my clarification above. Am I going about this the wrong way?
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby stubbsonic » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:54 am

A cool way to do this is to use a SONG chunk. You can put overlapping sequence chunks into a song chunk and each sequence chunk can have its own manual SMTPE start address. The easiest way to do this is just to choose INSERT COLUMN from the mini menu. This will let you type in the measure|beat|tick to put the column and hence to start the 2nd sequence.

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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby buzzsmith » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:02 pm

PoliticalBonobo wrote:Edit: Clarification:
Here's what I'm trying to do musically. I have a song playing (3/4 time, 59bpm) where I fade out into ambient noise (a blurry transition in the film). When the next scene starts, I'd basically like to resume the song with same tempo and time signature. However, when I resume the music, I'd prefer to start on the 1st beat of a measure. The next scene starts mid-measure and not on a beat.


Well, this is most definitely FM's area but I have a thought.

If it's still MIDI and you really don't care if the barlines are "correct" you can select every track and move them earlier to that exact location that you want to hit for the next scene.

If you've already rendered to audio, same thing...cut the audio file where needed and nudge to your exact point. In audio, you could set up two tracks, if needed, and crossfade between them at the cue for a smoother transition.

Obviously, if you've already scored scenes beyond this, then this method would make those cues no longer exactly align as they would be early.

FM does a lot of film work, so he may have a better idea.

Buzzy





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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:10 pm

stubbsonic wrote:A cool way to do this is to use a SONG chunk. You can put overlapping sequence chunks into a song chunk and each sequence chunk can have its own manual SMTPE start address. The easiest way to do this is just to choose INSERT COLUMN from the mini menu. This will let you type in the measure|beat|tick to put the column and hence to start the 2nd sequence.

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Interesting. I haven't messed with the Song window very much. But I guess this would force me to work in a second Sequence Chunk for when my song "resumes". Is there a way to keep it within a single sequence chunk?
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby kdm » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:56 pm

In this case, I would use "Adjust Beats", and check "drag beats in edit window" - use that to drag the closest measure start to the timecode for next scene start. This will change the tempo for the previous measure, but nothing before that, so you can use it to shift your transition section around a bit to loosely define bars for it if you want, or just create a slow-tempo bar to get your next scene's beat 1 to line up.

The other option is to set locked markers at your in/out points for the transition scene, and use "find tempo for locked markers", setting those two markers to Very Important - you can find a tempo for the rubato/a-tempo section that will give you a beat 1 start for the end marker, and set your tempo for that section without affecting the previous.

Chunks can be easier for reprising cues or new starts, but I see what you are doing, and I would probably approach it the same way - saves a step of mixing down two scenes and combining them later.
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:33 pm

kdm wrote:In this case, I would use "Adjust Beats", and check "drag beats in edit window"


This worked out, although I was hoping to do it without a tempo change. But this will work! Thanks!
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby kdm » Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:27 pm

Glad that worked.

I would like to see an option to "break" the measures timeline at any point, much like a document breakpoint, and set a new bar 1 start point (keeping timecode and previous tempos changes/bar locations in tact for the sequence of course). It could be a variation of the chunks/new sequence feature. However if individual sequences have to handle bars/beats as a contiguous linear series (as may be the case with most DAWs), it might not be technically feasible, but it would certainly come in handy from time to time, especially when we have breaks in a scene that don't really necessitate a new cue sequence, and we really just need to suspend bars/beats for a time.
Last edited by kdm on Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby stubbsonic » Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:52 pm

Maybe this was mentioned, but you could just use two tempo changes, maybe one in the last measure before you resume, and then the one to restore your desired tempo. Then you can just keep adjusting finer and finer until that beat one lands where you want it to. I do that sometimes.
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby kdm » Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:02 pm

Hey stubbsonic - that's what Adjust Bars does - allows you to drag barlines, or set them to a specific location, adjusting the tempo for that bar to correspond to the barline change.
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Re: Start at beat 1 in middle of measure?

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:32 am

kdm wrote:It could be a variation of the chunks/new sequence feature. However if individual sequences have to handle bars/beats as a contiguous linear series (as may be the case with most DAWs), it might not be technically feasible, but it would certainly come in handy from time to time, especially when we have breaks in a scene that don't really necessitate a new cue sequence, and we really just need to suspend bars/beats for a time.


Actually, in Ableton Live, when inserting a meter change anywhere in the middle of a measure, it automatically starts on beat 1 of the next full measure right at the meter change. This leaves you with a partial measure just before your meter change. Maybe Live is unique when it comes to that, but that's why I thought it would be so simple! Now on the other hand, it would take some serious finagling to get Live to keep the measure before the meter change intact while landing the next beat 1 on a particular frame.
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