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Yet another crash problem...large template

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Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:04 pm

I've been expanding my template and noticed that there seems to be a limit on how many aux tracks DP will allow before it starts acting glitchy and crashing.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I currently have 66 audio tracks (for bouncing), 78 MIDI tracks, and 65 aux tracks. My early versions of my template had fewer tracks, but I'd like to continue growing my aux tracks since I'm using VEP for most of the instruments.

I've seen examples online of people having 800+ track DP templates. My computer system doesn't seem anywhere close to running low on resources (low CPU/RAM usage, no instruments loaded).
DP9.1 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, Steinburg UR44 interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 32gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive)
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby kdm » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:25 am

It may be a combination of factors, but routing may be a cause. With both audio tracks for bouncing and auxes for inputs, it may be that routing is somehow corrupted the DP project itself.

I have several hundred MIDI tracks, and probably 30-40 auxes. It is very stable, except for switching to the Sequence editor with a lot of folders open. I also use folders for my MIDI track sections/instruments, and I've found DP doesn't like to have a lot of folder-based tracks open in the SE. I ended up hiding all but my stem bounce tracks in the SE (everything still visible in the Track Editor) and that helped signficiantly.

Is there any specific task (switching editors, etc) that seems to trigger a crash, or does it happen randomly? You might try hiding a large section of tracks and see if you notice any difference.

Good to see another DP user in Colorado.
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:23 am

It is very stable, except for switching to the Sequence editor with a lot of folders


That is exactly where things start failing for me! When going to the SE and expanding all my folders, it just can't take it and crashes. Or I'll get display errors and my windows will start glitching and display improperly.

I'm slightly releived to know this may not just be my project. I was about to create a whole new template but was worried I'd be wasting time. I've experimented with disabling plugins, loading tracks into a new project (via Load) and couldn't find any consistency there. I think I'll see how it works to just avoid showing all the tracks I don't care about (eg the bounce tracks) using the Track Selector and see how that works. Is that basically how you do it?

Ah! So far, Charles Denler is the only other composer I've encountered that uses DP here in CO. I'm sure there are many others, but honestly, I'm not as well connected here as I should be. Whereabouts in CO are you? (hopefully not an inappropriate question for the forum;) )
DP9.1 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, Steinburg UR44 interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 32gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive)
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby kdm » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:15 am

It is good to know it seems connected to the SE and folders for you as well - that might be narrowing down, and confirming the problem. I reported the folders/SE problem to MOTU a couple of months ago and sent a good bit of informationt to them. The tech support rep's last update says he forwarded it to development. I haven't heard back, but since 9.1 is on the way, I assume any fix might be added there, or put off until a later maintenance release.

I'm based in Co. Springs but up in Denver frequently. I don't know Charles Denler, but have heard of him. I don't know of any other DP users either, but I'm not well connected locally either.
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby FMiguelez » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:41 am

Does this also happen if you use audio tracks instead of aux tracks for the same purpose?

I do that, and I 've never experienced what you describe.
I also use lots of Aux tracks for the receiving ends in the stems, and I've never noticed anything unusual.
But I could not negate a problem with many aux tracks receiving signal from VIs. I used to do it like this loooong ago, but my template was nowhere nearly as complex.

Sometimes, the Latency setting in the VEP window can make the computer work extra hard. Have you tried setting them higher to relieve your computer a little?
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby kdm » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:39 pm

I think it is likely isolated to DP on Windows rather than audio vs. aux tracks. I've seen problems switching to the SE with only folders of MIDI tracks open, so I don't even think it is necessarily tied to aux or audio tracks, but a graphics/window switching problem related to using folders and displaying a large number of tracks in the SE.

MOTU dev might benefit from seeing the crash dump.
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:00 pm

FMiguelez wrote:Does this also happen if you use audio tracks instead of aux tracks for the same purpose?


In my case, it gets glitchy when loading 250 aux or audio tracks. Oddly enough, it didn't occur right off the bat when adding MIDI tracks.

FMiguelez wrote:Sometimes, the Latency setting in the VEP window can make the computer work extra hard. Have you tried setting them higher to relieve your computer a little?


Yep, didn't seem to matter much.
DP9.1 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, Steinburg UR44 interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 32gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive)
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:01 pm

kdm wrote:It is good to know it seems connected to the SE and folders for you as well - that might be narrowing down, and confirming the problem. I reported the folders/SE problem to MOTU a couple of months ago and sent a good bit of informationt to them. The tech support rep's last update says he forwarded it to development. I haven't heard back, but since 9.1 is on the way, I assume any fix might be added there, or put off until a later maintenance release.

I'm based in Co. Springs but up in Denver frequently. I don't know Charles Denler, but have heard of him. I don't know of any other DP users either, but I'm not well connected locally either.


I'll submit to MOTU as well, just to help reiterate that it's a problem.

When you're going to be Denver next, let me know and we could get coffee or something. I always enjoy talking about this stuff.
DP9.1 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, Steinburg UR44 interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 32gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive)
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby kdm » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:45 pm

PoliticalBonobo wrote:When you're going to be Denver next, let me know and we could get coffee or something. I always enjoy talking about this stuff.


I'll send a pm when I know - I will likely be there one day next week.
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:48 am

kdm wrote:The tech support rep's last update says he forwarded it to development. I haven't heard back, but since 9.1 is on the way, I assume any fix might be added there, or put off until a later maintenance release.


Playing around with 9.1 for only a few minutes, I haven't yet been able to recreate the problem on my end! Let's hope it sticks!
DP9.1 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, Steinburg UR44 interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 32gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive)
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby kdm » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:55 pm

Excellent!

I have been cautiously optimistic - switching to the SE seems faster and I had no problems with it yesterday. I haven't had a chance to risk pushing it with all of my folders open and visible, etc, but so far so good here as well. I didn't see a specific mention of it in the release notes, but it may be part of another issue that was fixed. Here's hoping 9.1 fixed these crashes.
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby the_rpg_moogle » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:14 am

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but I've got this problem as well. Have raised a support ticket, and the Motu rep replied that they have been able to recreate it, and that it is a Windows 10 issue. I'm truly hoping for a quick fix for this as I've been unable to create large templates the way I would do with another DAW. So here's hoping!
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby mesayre » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:06 am

Just out of curiosity, what are all those aux's for? I assume they're individual returns for each VI. Unless you're using MAS plugins that have no VST equivalent, it seems like overkill to bring all those back individually. Why not do the routing and even some mixing in VEP?

Depending on how your VEP instances are arranged, you could merge those VI tracks into a stereo return, perhaps by instrument family/stem. Maybe a second return for reverb, with VEP handling the sends. If your template is relatively fixed, you can also map MIDI controllers to the params in VEP so you can mix without having to bring up the VEP window.

As I understand it, DP is going to treat every aux track as 'always on', even if VEP is not sending any data back - and thrash your CPU accordingly. If you route it in VEP you'll save some juice.

Of course, you know your setup best. YMMV.
DP 8.07 - Win 10 - Intel i7 8-core w/ 16GB Ram
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Re: Yet another crash problem...large template

Postby PoliticalBonobo » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:14 am

mesayre wrote:Just out of curiosity, what are all those aux's for? I assume they're individual returns for each VI. Unless you're using MAS plugins that have no VST equivalent, it seems like overkill to bring all those back individually. Why not do the routing and even some mixing in VEP?


Thanks for the tip. Yeah, I did start bussing things together in VEP more, especially orchestral instruments. I do still like to keep aux's for each instrument outside of my orchestral VEP instances. This makes it much easier to bounce and give to my mix guy. 40-50 aux tracks for audio bounce doesn't seem too bad, and I no longer get crashing.
DP9.1 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, Steinburg UR44 interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 32gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive)
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