In a state of crisis. Project crashes, need advice

[PoliticalBonobo]

First of all, I had the harebrained idea to learn DP by using it for a new job. What better way to learn, right?

Second, I'd kill to have an old guru to shadow every day as I learn this stuff....
Ok, done venting.

I have a project with a standard definition movie loaded (hour and a half, ~260MB), 2 Sequences, 1 v-rack, and 1 Song comprised of the 2 sequences. I don't have that many tracks and plug-ins yet since I just started the movie. DP crashes when I try to either add ProVerb to a track or when I try moving/deleting the EWQL Play insert plug-in. I have 16GB of RAM, and ~45% is being used when I have this project open, which is a lot of usage and probably the cause of the crashes.

No matter what I do, I can't seem to find a workaround to save my project. I've tried starting a new project and loaded each chunk in, starting with just the v-rack. It still uses a ton of RAM and crashes when I try to mess with plugins like ProVerb or East/West plugins.

I guess I could start the project over from scratch, but I'm worried this will just repeat itself. I performed all updates to DP and my plugins in use.

Anything I can do to save my project?
Am I doing something wrong to have all this RAM in use? It doesn't seem like 2 Sequences, a v-rack, and a Song should be killing everything like this...

Here is my v-rack with a sequence:


Computer specs:

Controllers: M-Audio Oxygen61 and Oxygen25
OS: Windows 7 SP1, 64-bit
DAW: DP 9
Interface: Scarlett 2i2 (with passive DI box in front)
Driver: Focusrite USB 2.0 Audio Driver
Processor: Intel Core i5 2500k Quad core @ 3.3Ghz
RAM: 16GB (4x4GB)
Drives: Crucial M4 256GB SSD, Crucial M4 128GB SSD
GPU: 2x NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti
Motherboard: Asus p8z68-v PRO/GEN3

EDIT: I did submit a Techlink with MOTU as well.

[billf]

I'm not a Windows user, so it could be specific to your platform. But, are you able to create a New Mix in the mixer window? If so, and if it does not crash, maybe try adding a plugin one at a time, test it out, and see if a particular plugin is implicated in the crash.

As an example, I recently had crashes caused by a wayward Lexicon plugin, but I'm on a Mac so YMMV.

[Guitar Gaz]

Try trashing the preference file if you can do that in Windows. Try reinstalling DP9. I don't know the Windows version but these 2 things worked for me.

[PoliticalBonobo]

I'm not a Windows user, so it could be specific to your platform. But, are you able to create a New Mix in the mixer window? If so, and if it does not crash, maybe try adding a plugin one at a time, test it out, and see if a particular plugin is implicated in the crash.

As an example, I recently had crashes caused by a wayward Lexicon plugin, but I'm on a Mac so YMMV.

Thank you! I found the culprit this way! I was so sure that the plugin I was trying to edit (EWQL Play or ProVerb) was causing the crashes, but it wasn't. It was Kontakt Player. As soon as I loaded it, the memory usage started shooting up. It was loading all the samples of the instrument to memory, and I had multiple instances of Kontakt running. I'll be purging the samples in Kontakt and only keeping the ones I need loaded.

I was so sure I was doing something wrong in the workflow, too. Can I ask you a side question: do you (or most people) score entire films in one project file, using chunks and v-racks for each scene? Or do you split out scenes between new project files.

Thanks again for the help. I believe you solved my problem.

[PoliticalBonobo]

I spoke too soon. I loaded my chunks into a new project file, cleared out all the plugins, and simply tried to add ProVerb or EWQL Play and I get a crash. Could one of my chunks been corrupted somehow?

I tried reinstalling DP9, but no luck.

[Michael Canavan]

Try using just Kontakt. Play is likely the culprit. Mostly crashes with plug ins are due to third party and in any DAW it's possible to get "cross contamination". The first thing to try is to see if Play isn't at fault here. East West might have issues with DP9 on Windows, since that's probably been released after the latest version of Play. The same is true of all third party plug ins of course, but Play is giving you a consistent crash so....

Since it works stand alone it's possible to work around this if Play is the culprit!

[PoliticalBonobo]

Since it works stand alone it's possible to work around this if Play is the culprit!

I never even considered using Play standalone. I guess I would ReWire into DP. Thanks for the tip!

[Mathematics]

It still uses a ton of RAM and crashes when I try to mess with plugins like ProVerb or East/West plugins.

Anything I can do to save my project?
Am I doing something wrong to have all this RAM in use? It doesn't seem like 2 Sequences, a v-rack, and a Song should be killing everything like this...

Controllers: M-Audio Oxygen61 and Oxygen25
OS: Windows 7 SP1, 64-bit
DAW: DP 9
Interface: Scarlett 2i2 (with passive DI box in front)
Driver: Focusrite USB 2.0 Audio Driver
Processor: Intel Core i5 2500k Quad core @ 3.3Ghz
RAM: 16GB (4x4GB)
Drives: Crucial M4 256GB SSD, Crucial M4 128GB SSD
GPU: 2x NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti
Motherboard: Asus p8z68-v PRO/GEN3

EW is a memory hog. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about that. I once had a Focusrite 2i4 (for about 2 days) and ran about 9 gigs of samples from EW and Vienna on a slave computer. It was all PC-based and didn't crash. I ran ProVerb on the host, like you are, but I slaved all my samples off to another computer(s).

I think you would benefit from investing in Vienna Ensemble Pro if you plan to be serious in what you're doing. You'll just need one other computer...and it doesn't need to be that great. Even the most powerful single systems have their quantum limits in being able to run a DAW and "players" in the same system.

What you're experiencing with crashes and such, is most likely a multi-tasking issue that goes beyond the scope of DP's management of the players, in which you're trying to run simultaneously. Each player uses a considerable amount of CPU with EW using a tremendous amount. For simple songs with a handful of instruments, a single "box" (computer) is more than capable even with a USB-based sound card, like the 2i2. When you start getting into orchestration, that's a whole other ballgame, in my opinion; unless you're just trying to score using a small string ensemble - nothing epic right? I doubt that.

Here's a video that will give you a crash course of the "big picture."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtBxZaUB8p8

I would also seek other videos related to what is mentioned in the video. I recommend reading a book called MIDI Orchestration (4th ed) by Paul Gilreath, if you haven't already.

[FMiguelez]

Sorry. Bad post with iPad

[FMiguelez]

.

Can I ask you a side question: do you (or most people) score entire films in one project file, using chunks and v-racks for each scene? Or do you split out scenes between new project files.

I like doing one cue per chunk, one reel per project.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

.

Can I ask you a side question: do you (or most people) score entire films in one project file, using chunks and v-racks for each scene? Or do you split out scenes between new project files.

I like doing one cue per chunk, one reel per project.

That's the way to do it. Be sure you have a good backup plan.

I don't have Play or EW, nor do I have a PC so I can't really offer an intelligent suggestion on that.

There is (on a Mac - and there must be the equivalent on a PC) preference (plist) files for both the DP app and the MOTU Audio System (MOTU Audio System Prefs). On a Mac that is in the user library/Preferences/com.motu.DigitalPerformer folder. If you can find the equivalent it would be worth deleting that (while DP is not running, of course).

I'd reexamine all the audio units as well. This is best accomplshed by deleting the file (again, on a Mac I know what it's called) com.MOTU.AU_Examiner.plist.

If that all fails and you need to go a bit deeper, there are also files the plugs write and those can get corrupted. Where each plug keeps it's preference (plist) may vary so you'll have to figure that out unless others can tell you where those plists are located.

You might also reinstall DP. It's not that big a deal to do it and if the app itself got corrupted on install, then it can be problematic for future projects.

If you're deep into the project and still can save it, I'd suggest at least trying to export MIDI files or MXL files to reimport into another project when you figure this out, or to at least bring into the DAW you are familiar with.

Finally (and certainly not least) a call to MOTU tech support would be in order. Much of this stuff they will walk you through and you can do it ahead of that and save yourself some time.

A couple of final notes (no pun intended) is audio files and your quicktime file.

Try the file with the QT or other movie file clearedto see if that is messing you up. Also, if you have any audio files, delete them and/or disable audio in the project to see if it still crashes. I'd try to do a "SAVE AS" and copy audio and work on the copy if possible.

Audio files can have their headers messed up and that can cause all sorts of problems in DP. Movies with oddball CODECs can also create problems for you.

Good luck.

[Mathematics]

...one cue per chunk, one reel per project.

+1

[PoliticalBonobo]

EW is a memory hog. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about that. I once had a Focusrite 2i4 (for about 2 days) and ran about 9 gigs of samples from EW and Vienna on a slave computer. It was all PC-based and didn't crash. I ran ProVerb on the host, like you are, but I slaved all my samples off to another computer(s).

I think you would benefit from investing in Vienna Ensemble Pro if you plan to be serious in what you're doing. You'll just need one other computer...and it doesn't need to be that great. Even the most powerful single systems have their quantum limits in being able to run a DAW and "players" in the same system.

I think this is what I'll have to do. There is one computer connected to my network that I can hopefully use as a slave. The whole process is a little overwhelming, but after watching that video it seems like it'd be wise to use slaves if I want to do this with little pain as possible. I haven't even hit full orchestra on Play yet; I'm just trying to run a single piano!

Thanks for the advice.

[PoliticalBonobo]

There is (on a Mac - and there must be the equivalent on a PC) preference (plist) files for both the DP app and the MOTU Audio System (MOTU Audio System Prefs). On a Mac that is in the user library/Preferences/com.motu.DigitalPerformer folder. If you can find the equivalent it would be worth deleting that (while DP is not running, of course).

I'd reexamine all the audio units as well. This is best accomplshed by deleting the file (again, on a Mac I know what it's called) com.MOTU.AU_Examiner.plist.

If that all fails and you need to go a bit deeper, there are also files the plugs write and those can get corrupted. Where each plug keeps it's preference (plist) may vary so you'll have to figure that out unless others can tell you where those plists are located.

You might also reinstall DP. It's not that big a deal to do it and if the app itself got corrupted on install, then it can be problematic for future projects.

Thanks for the details. I did try re-installing DP but to no avail. I'll try to locate these preference files and delete them and see if that helps.

It appears the finger is being pointed at EW Play. I started a new project from scratch and loaded my song chunks from the problem project. I deleted my v-rack and started over by loading my plug-ins back in. I've had one instance of EW Play loaded with no issues UNTIL I tried loading ProVerb again. It's like Play isn't leaving any room for other kids in the playground, and adding ProVerb brings it crashing down. I'm liking the idea of having a slave to run heavy plugins.

When using Ableton Live, I usually could have multiple instances of Play running without issue. However, I think Live's plug-ins aren't as hungry for resources given that the software is geared for live performance. I'm thrilled that DP has some seemingly powerful stock plug-ins.

[PoliticalBonobo]

I like doing one cue per chunk, one reel per project.

Silly question, but what do you do when a cue spans longer than a reel? Do you just load the next reel into the project to finish out that cue?