A huge host of detailed criticisms (and can they be fixed?)

[ssb]

I really like Digital Performer. I want to love it, I really do. But there are several small issues, particularly with usability, that I want to ask about before I commit to making this purchase. Hopefully I can find a workaround, or at least advice in how to change my approach. Some of these issues may be cross-platform, but I'm posting it here anyway because I'm using it on Windows. The following complains are mostly minor, I think, but there are enough for it to make me hesitant to buy it.

I acknowledge that a lot of these issues may just arise from my ignorance of how the program works. If that's the case I really hope I can be corrected or pointed in the right direction to fixing it.

That said, I'm running Windows 7 x64, SSD for OS and another SSD for most used samples. 24 GB RAM with a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 interface. I work primarily with orchestral virtual instruments, meaning a ton of tracks and a ton of stuff loaded into RAM. That should give you at least a general idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.

First, routing MIDI outputs is a huge pain, particularly when dealing with aux tracks. When I want to change a track's output, the menu is nicely laid out and gives me an organized, quick selection of everything available. Not so with inputs. When I'm trying to route Kontakt, for example, to its aux outputs, the menu is just one looooong list of stereo outputs, and I have to wait for the little arrow to scroll down. When you get a lot of outputs this can take some time, and when you're doing it for dozens or hundreds of tracks, it's awful. Compare this to Studio One where you just open that instrument's instance in the mixer and click a checkbox for each output you want enabled. It takes seconds. Is there a better way to do this in DP or am I stuck drudging through that awful menu?

And speaking of which, I seem to have a bug where one of my groups of aux tracks for an instance of kontakt reset to something else every time I close and open the project. So every time I open it up I have to change those inputs 16 times.

When adding new aux tracks or instruments or whatever, I would like to be able to automatically increment from the previous value, as well. This would have solved a lot of my pains with the aux track adding. If I could just choose to add 16 and take the next output in the list for each one, life would be so simple. Is this feature missing or did I just not see how to do it?

In the track view, there is no indication of nested folders. I notice that there is in the sequence view, but in the track view, especially when you have a lot of folders open and closed, it can be difficult to tell at a glance what exactly is going on. I'd like to see some sort of indication, indentation or whatever, indicating folder structure, as well as perhaps a change in background color or something to make it more visually obvious.

Next there is no intuitive way to expand or close all folders, if there is one at all. I'd expect that to be in the right click menu but I don't see it.

Selecting tracks is also somewhat unintuitive, though I can live with that. However I'd like to see the entire row of the track's information highlight on mouseover, and I'd like to see the whole row highlighted rather than just the track name.

Moving tracks and folders around also can be a pain, especially when you have a bunch of folders. I'd like to see some sort of indication of where exactly the track you're moving will be placed before you actually release the mouse button. Combine this with the need for clearer folder structure, because it's easy to drop stuff into folders by accident..

If I have a track selected for recording, and then I close that track's folder, I have no way of seeing where the enabled track is. Please add some sort of indication in the folder that has recording enabled. I'd also like to see an option to enable recording for an entire folder.

No real complaints in the sequence view, but maybe once I use it more I'll find some issues.

I never use the drum view either so nothing there.

MIDI view. I'm a mouse-heavy piano roll user, so a lot of this might just be personal preference, but nevertheless I'll voice my concerns. First, I'd like to see the key display at the left be a bit bigger and in an actual piano shape. See FL Studio or Studio One. Or at least I'd like to have the option for this kind of display. It would also be great if where you clicked in the keys mapped to a certain velocity.

Next, and this is a big one, I need some sort of indicator between measures. Lines change color ever so slightly on the beat, but there's nothing between measures. Either alternating background colors or a thicker or different color line, something to show where measures begin and end. It seems like the sequence view has this but I don't see it in MIDI.

I'd also really appreciate if it were easier to make quick, one-off adjustments to velocity. I'm thinking of the FL Studio piano roll, here, where clicking and dragging with the pencil tool will change whatever velocities it comes into contact with. Possibly keep velocity bars present even when they're not selected.

In fact I'd like to see at least the option to include much of the functionality of the FL Studio piano roll. For example, placing a note uses the length of the last placed or selected note, holding allows you to move the note both in pitch and in time, dragging right click erases, clicking and dragging on an existing note with the pencil tool moves the note rather than erasing it.. etc. I know a lot of this is personal preference.

When quantizing, I'd like to get a VISUAL preview of how the notes will change before I apply it.

I would like to have the option to change mouse scroll sensitivity in MIDI editing. I don't want each tick up or down to change a full octave; I always find myself having to go to the scroll bar and do it manually.

I would like to be able to drag-select notes without having to include the note's attack. That is, be able to select it from the end or middle of the bar rather than dragging to select the whole thing.

I would like to be able to record MIDI automation without deleting existing notes (or without getting mixed up garbled data when using overdub).

And generally, I'd like to be able to loop the entire song automatically after the end of the last track/clip/whatever is reached. I can't figure out how to do this without manually moving the memory cycle markers.

In fact going back to those scrolling menus, those are terrible and I think it should just use columns if no other organizational method exists.

I think there is a memory leak as well. I've had DP open for a few hours now and I have done nothing except play a few notes on my keyboard, and the memory usage has gone up by at least 3 GB, and it seems to be rising.

And lastly, it seems there still needs to be a lot of optimization for Windows. I still get some crashes when opening plugins, I get crackling sound when starting to play or switching samples (occasionally), clicking back to the start of the song causes some hiccups and crackling if done during playback. I compare this to Reaper or Studio One or Cubase or any other Windows DAW and it just feels unacceptable. I have zero playback issues elsewhere.

Anyway, these are the issues I have for now. I'm sure I can find more if I try to explore more of the program's features, but for now the list is extensive.

[frankf]

What do you "Really like" about DP? Why are you switching from the other apps that have the features you want? Seriously, you can't compare DP directly to other DAWs. It has it's own approach that most here love. And I'm not saying there aren't issues and features to add. I can't answer all of you criticisms but you should dig a little deeper, IMO.


Frank Ferrucci

[ssb]

I realize a lot of these are small, but a lot of them feel to me like things that are obvious and should just be there regardless of other DAWs. A lot of the MIDI editing stuff is personal preference, especially, I don't expect people to agree with me on that. But things like menus and making the interface more easy to understand I think would be welcome to anyone, no?

[bayswater]

I have to admit to a lot of deja vu as I read your list -- I had many of the same reactions when I switched to DP. But as Frank said, DP just does a lot of things differently, and for obvious reasons, in ways people here consider better. If you take advantage of the way DP does do things, a lot of these things just "go away". Some of the recent videos and books developed for V8 show how to use DP in ways that are not all that obvious from the manual.

A few things you mentioned, like the mysterious changing channel assignments are bugs, so I'm sure everyone here would like them fixed, although I see the same happen in Cubase and Logic, so it might have more to do with publishing errors from devices and VIs than DP.

Other things, I agree should be improved. Tweaking velocity is a PITA. I gave up on the tiny icons and use the Event Bar value. And there has to be a better way to set up VIs in the Bundles window when you have a dozen VIs each with 32 outputs, and the list of channels stretches eastwards to infinity.

[Prime Mover]

When adding new aux tracks or instruments or whatever, I would like to be able to automatically increment from the previous value, as well.

Actually, there's something just as good: "opt-A" on mac (not sure what it is on Windows; search in the commands window for "Audio Assignments"). If you select a bunch of tracks and call up this command, it'll give you the option to batch assign inputs and outputs, including incrementally assigning different bundles for each track. So just make a bunch of Auxes (or whatever) without worrying what their assignments are, then select them and hit Alt-A or whatever the Windows shortcut is. The advantage of this is that you can change assignments at any time, not just during track creation.

In the track view, there is no indication of nested folders.

Sure there is, though it's small. At least on the mac version, it's indented by about 1em (unit of width of the letter "M"). I doubt this is different on the PC version. I agree, I wish it was a little more pronounced, but it's definitely there. If it's not, you may want to check whether the tracks you're talking about are really *IN* the folder, or just below it. But in all views, the folders indent like a typical folder tree, it's just not that noticeable, likely to save in horizontal screen real-estate.

Next there is no intuitive way to expand or close all folders, if there is one at all. I'd expect that to be in the right click menu but I don't see it.

This would be one of those "In DP, it's not really part of the design philosophy" things. One thing that's wonderful about DP, though it confuses newcomers, is the division of rolls between the Tracks and Sequence windows. Basically the Tracks window is designed to show you more-or-less ALL the tracks all the time. It's not meant as a fine editing environment. It's firstly a navigation and reference interface, but it's also good as a blunt, full arrangement editing environment. Therefor it's counter-productive to constantly be hiding tracks away in their folders. I typically keep all folders open when working in the tracks window. One of DPs best workflow strategies is to mess with the view of the Tracks window as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, leaving it as an "always there" reference point. Then feel free to go nuts in the Sequence window, working on smaller groups of tracks, and know that you can always return to a comforting, always-omniscient tracks window. This is a different workflow style from any other DAW, and it's probably the number 1 reason I switched to DP, because it's so incredibly nice. I find it's a big de-stresser: having a unchanging birds-eye view and a chaotic, "don't worry about how organized it is at the moment" kind of view. Keeps me from getting either too OCD or too disorganized.

Therefor, as nice as track folders are for reference, within the optimal DP workflow, they're not all that necessary to open and close a lot. You'll usually want them open indefinitely or for long periods of time in the Tracks window, and in the sequence window, you'll more likely show/hide individual tracks, or use the track folders as a way of showing/hiding groups of tracks at once. To be honest, having an extensive "expand/collapse" folders commands would likely lead to workflow habits that aren't as efficient... people would start using DP like Logic, and it's not really meant to be used that way. Get comfortable with the tracks window/sequence window division of labor, which is key to using DP efficiently, and you'll quickly find this request to be pretty much unnecessary.

Selecting tracks is also somewhat unintuitive, though I can live with that. However I'd like to see the entire row of the track's information highlight on mouseover, and I'd like to see the whole row highlighted rather than just the track name.

This would be kinda nice, actually... hadn't thought about that. Don't know any other DAW that does this (though no other DAW has a tracks window), but it would be really nice for DP. As for actually selecting an entire track's data, simply hit "cmd-A" right before click on an individual track. Cmd-A performs a select all, then clicking on a track filters it down to just that track. You can then shift or cmd-click additional tracks to add them to the selection.

Moving tracks and folders around also can be a pain, especially when you have a bunch of folders. I'd like to see some sort of indication of where exactly the track you're moving will be placed before you actually release the mouse button.

Agreed. I like the system which just shows a little horizontal bold line between items, where the item will insert. Apple likes to do this fancy thing of flipping items around in real-time, and I don't like that, it's kind of intimidating and can make organization awkward in some situations... I think they're just trying to be cool, I'm not crazy about that system. But DP could use a nice visual reference of where to drop tracks. However, once again, this is incredibly minor.

I never use the drum view either so nothing there.

Gotta admit, this is DP8s weakest element, far worse than anything else listed here. Not so much the interface itself, but the complexity of setting up drum maps, and the inability of save them. I have very few "Come on MOTU, get with the program" moments, but this is probably one of them.

MIDI view. I'm a mouse-heavy piano roll user, so a lot of this might just be personal preference, but nevertheless I'll voice my concerns. First, I'd like to see the key display at the left be a bit bigger and in an actual piano shape.

You can change the zoom level of the piano roll, there's a small magnifying glass button just above the scroll bar, click on it and you get a triangle that allows you to expand or contract the vertical zoom level. As for horizontal piano key width, never occurred to me, though now that you mention it, it might be nice to have it a bit wider, I probably would be a little more accurate.

I would like to be able to drag-select notes without having to include the note's attack. That is, be able to select it from the end or middle of the bar rather than dragging to select the whole thing.

Actually, I disagree. sometimes complex MIDI parts make selection difficult, and I often find myself really trying to avoid selecting certain notes. Causing a selection to occur only at the start of the event makes it easier to avoid accidental selections, I've found this to be very handy. If you want more brute-force selection, then hold down the "I" key to select with the I beam and select an entire range.

I would like to be able to record MIDI automation without deleting existing notes (or without getting mixed up garbled data when using overdub).

Actually, I've never tried latching "automation record" on a MIDI track, check it out, it might do just that! It does with audio tracks. Use that instead of a normal record.

And generally, I'd like to be able to loop the entire song automatically after the end of the last track/clip/whatever is reached. I can't figure out how to do this without manually moving the memory cycle markers.

Click the "Link Selection to Memory" button, this will cause your memory markers to always jump to your current horizontal selection. I have this little trick that I do. I setup number buttons "1" "2" and "3" to "Memory Cycle", "Link Playback to Memory" and "Link Selection to Memory" respectively. Then I can hit those three keys as one button, and it will automatically initiate a loop region that I can playback. extremely handy, it's become second nature. I believe there's a simpler, built-in way with like "cmd-space" or something, but I've never bothered learning, look it up.

Honestly, it seems a lot of your problems are due to trying to approach DP8 like FL Studio or another DAW. Like any program, you have to meet it on it's own terms and learn how to work with its optimal workflow and not fight it. Sure, there are going to be some things you miss (I have a few from my PT and Sonar days), but DP is an incredibly deep program. Most of the things you may be looking for are very possible, but in slightly different ways. And some of your concerns may be due to trying to organize DP in ways that are counter to it's optimal workflow. That said, DP8 is incredibly customizable, and I find it to not pigeonhole users into regimented workflow systems nearly as much as most other programs, which is refreshing. It's so open ended and customizable that it can be a bit daunting. But I suggest you spend quite a bit of the time surfing the manual, either physical or PDF (I love the physical manual, it's one of the best I've ever seen), not only does it explain how to use various features, it often gives very insightful workflow strategies.

[bayswater]

From p163:

Working with track folders
To show or hide the contents of a folder, click its disclosure triangle. Command/Ctrl-click it to show/hide all sub-folders inside it. Option/Alt- click to show/hide all other folders at the same level. Command/Ctrl-Option/Alt-click to show/ hide all folders at all levels.

I find using track folders in the TO very useful. I usually have loads of tracks I end up not using. I disable them all and put them in an Unused folder.

[Prime Mover]

From p163:

Working with track folders
To show or hide the contents of a folder, click its disclosure triangle. Command/Ctrl-click it to show/hide all sub-folders inside it. Option/Alt- click to show/hide all other folders at the same level. Command/Ctrl-Option/Alt-click to show/ hide all folders at all levels.

I find using track folders in the TO very useful. I usually have loads of tracks I end up not using. I disable them all and put them in an Unused folder.

LOL, I had a sentence about that very thing but my post got too long; I went through and cut a lot of asides and that one got purged. Funny to see that someone does exactly the same thing, though I call mine "Old Tracks". But I guess my point is, I don't end up manipulating the collapse/expand folders much in the TO, I have my "Old Tracks" folder collapsed and disabled, and maybe if I'm completely ignoring some particular signal chain for a long length of time (purposefully ignoring reverbs to concentrate on EQ or something), but other than that, I mostly leave the track folders open and untouched, though I use them heavily for visual reference.

[bayswater]

I mostly leave the track folders open and untouched, though I use them heavily for visual reference.

I used to do that, just using the TO as just that: an overview, a lot like the Cubase TO if you know that. But now I use the TO for a lot of general editing and all setup, most things where you don't need to manipulate specific events. The TO is not pretty, but it's very useful.

[Prime Mover]

I'm probably understating my use of the TO for the sake of contrasting its purpose in relation to the sequence editor. I too do a fair amount of editing on the TO, but it's probably best for those who are starting out to get a clear division of labor in mind and not expect to use the TO the way they would in other DAWs. I probably spend more time in the TO than any other window, in fact. In edition to all my macro-editing and arranging, I typically do a lot of my effects tweaking in the TO. I'll loop a section and then click on a track to bring up it's channel strip and make adjustments. It's easier to manage than the mixing window (which I actually use fairly little of these days since the addition of the channel strip), and it's easy to jump around and hear the changes in different spots.

BTW: This reminds me, I think I would like to change my track organizational habits a bit. I've typically always put MIDI tracks in one folder and VIs in another, but I'm finding that more and more I end up having to search for one after I've been working on the other. Having corresponding MIDI and VI tracks next to each other might be a more effective strategy.

PS: I sorta wish I could completely hide all MIDI tracks from the mixing board, I NEVER use MIDI tracks in the mixing board. That's probably the biggest reason for keeping VIs and MIDI tracks separate, come to think of it.

I'll just have to try it out.

[bayswater]

PS: I sorta wish I could completely hide all MIDI tracks from the mixing board, I NEVER use MIDI tracks in the mixing board. That's probably the biggest reason for keeping VIs and MIDI tracks separate, come to think of it.

I'll just have to try it out.

Keep them in a folder and turn the folder off in the Track Selector.

[Prime Mover]

Yeah, that's what I do now, but I'm considering trying to pair the VI tracks with their corresponding MIDI tracks, and that would make putting all the MIDI tracks in their own folder impossible.

[bayswater]

That's one reason to allow sorting of the tracks in the TO by the various column headers. Then at least you could drag over a range of them in the Track Selector.

[frankf]

Make a custom group of all your MIDI tracks and enable show/hide. Then when you click one of them in the track selector, they all will hide. Applies to every window where there's a track Selector


Frank Ferrucci

[Prime Mover]

Unfortunately, I don't want that to happen in any window but the mixer. It would be obnoxious in the MIDI edit window, and really bad in the sequencer window. No, I might as well stick with my current setup.

[frankf]

Not trying to push you PM, but I use this grouping all the time in the SE, Mixer, QS, GE-works great. To each his own, of course. There's a command to suspend grouping when needed. I have it assigned to the "g" key.


Frank Ferrucci