A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .

[zuul-studios]

O.K. I am mystified. . .

For the past several years, whenever I did any "critical" mixing down (at my level of ability), I would use my happy Mackie HR824s, burn a CD of that mix, then take that CD to my car and listen to the project through my car's speakers. Noting any significant differences between the two, I would then make the "necessary" changes (again, at the level of my ability) and repeat the process. After maybe one or two more cycles of this process, and feeling fairly pleased with the quality of mixed sound, I would say, "enough is enough" and call the project "finished" or "mixed down" (at the level of my ability). Without a doubt, I ain't a pro. But I ain't that bad, either. I'm happily "O.K."! LOL! What little I know about the art of mixing, I learned from a friend who is (was) a trained audio engineer (while working with him on a few recording projects during the early 1990s) and on bulletin boards like this one.

I forgot to mention that, at one point, I used to have two smaller Radio Shack speakers in my studio that was part of the process (noted above). Those Radio Shack speakers are now happily retired somewhere in my closet of aging audio devices.

Now I'm coming to the crux of my information-seeking. . .

Yesterday, I purchased a pair of Blue-Tooth headphones to listen to music from my 6S iPhone. DANG! The audio quality is more than just passible. It's quite plausible! And, they only cost $39.99! Needless to say, the overall quality of the sound from these relatively cheap Blue-Tooth headphones is quite good. As I listen to a Pat Metheny Group recording (Album: Letter from Home), the sound is surprisingly somewhat even throughout the audio spectrum. No. It ain't perfect. The high end is a bit too "distinct", part of the middle is somewhat subdued, and the bass end is not necessarily "powerful" (which it doesn't need to be for this kind of recording). But, overall, everything is there, and sounding very well mixed! It sounds pleasant (at least to my modest ears). At present, I am LOVING hearing the acoustic bass player doing his thing!

Here is my question: HOW?!?!?

Really! How?!?

Yes. The overall sound of this particular album (and genre of music) sounds different when listened through my modest studio speakers. There is "more" bottom and the upper end isn't as "distinct". Certainly the overall quality is different between my studio speakers and these new (and somewhat cheap) Blue-Tooth headphones. Certainly the quality is "different". BUT, one ain't necessarily "better" than the other, which I find surprising.

Besides being exceedingly well-trained in their field, what the hell is the sound engineering doing to make the quality of this album (and others like it) sound good when listening to the tunes on Mackie HR824 speakers AND when listening to the tunes on cheap Insignia cordless Blue-Tooth headphones?!?

Thank you for any comments and insight you might share.

Respectfully,

Ted

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I'm not knowledgeable in speaker and headphone design, but I'd guess it has a lot to do with the design of the speaker as well as some general eq that may be built in. Also, when you have cans on you block out most non- musical interference from other sources (fans, a/c, cars, etc). Going further, sound, like light, is a wave. Anything you do to influence the delivery of the pure wave (including air density, pressure, and temperature, etc. is goning to color the sound.

I bet if you say with even lousy speakers right up to your ears you'd hear things even more differently.

There is no way to mix and hit the sweet spot of every system. I try to mix with the "flattest" sounding speakers I can. If people are selecting listening devices based on EQ or design preferences then their devices will favor that sound and you'll still be fine. At least that's my relatively uninformed and biased opinion.

[terrybritton]

Most mix on flat monitors and then test the mix on other systems (car speakers, small monitors, Radio Shack speakers out of the closet) and make adjustments like you do.

There are some modern tricks to control the bass and keep it present in smaller speakers that cannot reproduce such low frequencies employed nowadays in pop music and electronica pretty often. Doubling the bass with a sine wave an octave below is also common. This makes the mix exciting to those with subwoofers.

Once Bluetooth was only at an FM radio quality and was not so great for serious listening, but now they upgraded the specification so quite high quality streams get to the phones. If the mix was good and you enjoy the sound signature of that headset, then it is easy to sound pretty good. The more discerning ears at, say, http://head-fi.org listen a little more closely, and for them they hear the flaws in mixes pretty often, especially as they translate to specific headphones. So, I'd say you just got lucky this time! What brand and model of bluetooth headset did you get, anyway?

Terry

[mikehalloran]

Find some recordings you can know well enough to trust. These tend to sound good on anything but perfect on very few systems. Now, use those to find monitors you can like.

I have a few cuts I use to test monitors. With one, I want to hear how the Hammond sounds (I won't hear it at all on most speakers). Another, I want to be able to understand the singer—. With others, I'm listening to the stereo spread and how the singer is placed. Then there's the definition of the kick and bass. With each of those recordings, lesser monitors will fail—that's why I chose them.

Using those criteria, I found a monitor setup that lets me make good mixes.

When I first listened to my current speakers, I played a monster hit from the '70s and hated them. The orchestra balance was wrong and the French horn was out of tune. Huh? Waitaminute...I had never heard that out of tune horn before—and it was. Then I played my standards and others through them. Six months later, I had to get a subwoofer as good.

[zuul-studios]

Thank you, all, for the very thoughtful information.

The brand name of the Blue-Tooth headphones is Insignia "Over the Ear Style Ear Pads".

I believe that the Mackie HR824 speakers are pretty "flat" (and don't "color" the sound). It seems that listening to a mix-down-in-progress through a variety of sources (including my old Radio Shack speakers) is a good thing to do. It is reassuring to read that others use this process while mixing down their music. Also, I do have a few "favored" recording that I use as a comparison when I mix. I need to refer to those professional recordings more often when I mix, though. I need to make it an important part of the process, which I presently don't do. Mixing in a sine-wave an octave below the bass seems like an interesting "trick" to try. Unfortunately, I don't have a sub-woofer (yet) in my modest studio. And to be honest, the thought of adding additional speakers like a sub-woofer to my studio makes me anxious. LOL! I think I might take out those Radio Shack speakers, though, and include them, again, for future projects.

[mikehalloran]

The Mackie 824 does have good bass response but, if you can't trust the bottom, you probably need a sub.

Besides the additional notes, a good sub with a crossover (80Hz is standard) removes low frequency anomalies from your mains that color the bottom. In the case of the Mackie, that rear firing passive radiator and its distance from the wall will affect its accuracy.

[terrybritton]

Here is a really good article from the folks at Sound-On-Sound called "Mixing Bass" that covers all the tough stuff.

Terry

[billf]

One of the things about Bluetooth (and something for the mix engineer to keep in mind) is that Bluetooth can apply its own compression to audio files. So it's a good rule of thumb to test mixes in wired and wireless contexts.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Adding to Mike's comment: add a subwoofer: essential.

[Phil O]

+1
I added a sub to my Adam A-7s a few years back and the difference is night and day.

[mikehalloran]

There's something about headphones... I like listening to them but hate mixing on them.

My sets are good enough for critical listening but my mixes never sounded right done in cans. Somehow, I need the air between the speakers and my ears to make the decisions that I need.

I own examples of all the headphones in this article but the MDR-V6s I bought 20 years ago still sound the best to me. I can count the celli and basses in a well-recorded orchestra on them. Sometimes, I'll put them on to resolve frequency conflicts in the mid-bass but that's the only time they get used when mixing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_MDR-V6

[billf]

There's something about headphones... I like listening to them but hate mixing on them.

My sets are good enough for critical listening but my mixes never sounded right done in cans. Somehow, I need the air between the speakers and my ears to make the decisions that I need.

If you use headphones for mixing, Sonarworks has a headphone calibration plugin that might help. I've tried it and the Waves NX system, and while neither have convinced me to rely on headphone mixing, they do help get it closer to being acceptable.

[mikehalloran]

I'm referring back to the OP.

Back in the '70s, I tried mixing to my Koss 4As. Those sounded ok on my friend's JBL 4311s — and nowhere else. I don't do that anymore.

I suppose that, when they cart me to the Senior home, I'll try a headphone plugin with my Sonys assuming that I can still hear and am still interested in making music.

Till then, my Equator mains and JBL sub are doing what I need. Hmmm... Ted has the new D8 in stock... time to replace my D5s? (No! No! No! My D5s are fine! Really!)

[bayswater]

What is the high pass filter setting on the Mackies? I keep forgetting it's there on mine, with some other settings. At one point I set it to filter out very low frequencies thinking most of the time these won't get reproduced, but that made it difficult to get anything that worked well on other speakers.

[mikehalloran]

What is the high pass filter setting on the Mackies? I keep forgetting it's there on mine, with some other settings. At one point I set it to filter out very low frequencies thinking most of the time these won't get reproduced, but that made it difficult to get anything that worked well on other speakers.

I forgot about that. I haven't mixed an album on a pair of 824s since the mid 1990s.

http://www.advancedaudiorentals.com/docs/hr824_ss.pdf