Can anyone offer thoughts on large DP files & RAM space?

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BonDarker
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Can anyone offer thoughts on large DP files & RAM space?

Post by BonDarker »

I should add, PLEASE & THANK YOU...

I maybe babbling in the following spewage of thought but therein are a few questions I'm trying to evaluate. Any thoughts at all would be helpful.

Specs: MacBook Pro 2.7, OS 10.10.5, 16 gig RAM, MOTU DP9 w/828mk3

OKAY - I am working with a DP file that totals about 8 gigs, and includes aprox 125 stereo WAV files (24/44.1), each about as long as an "average" pop song (3 to 6 minutes long). These are backing tracks for a Live Show. Parallel to each Audio Track are MIDI Files for both Virtual Instruments, External MIDI devices and stage lighting control, etc.

The Audio Files and their respective Sequence Chunks are arranged in the Chunks Window and NEVER played side by side, (i.e. at the same time). Thus, 1 stereo Audio Track—Master Mix—per Sequence Chunk.

I am also using, in a V-Rack, Mach5-3, with about 6 instruments, Superior Drummer, Komplete 5 - usually only 1 or 2 instruments, along with MOTU's Polysynth stereo and BassLine stereo.

A N D - There are presently 4 to 6 external MIDI devices being controlled during the Sequence Chunks play.

Whew! I must have forgotten something...

In this configuration, the 8 Gig DP file seems to bog down and move to the next Seq Chunk slowly. I figured I'd split the Master DP File into 2 Files of about 4 Gigs each to see if the MacBook could move along a bit faster. Didn't seem to make a real big difference. Still sluggish.

With that in mind... add this into the mix!

Of course, considering I am using the afore mentioned set up in a LIVE SHOW, I must use an iLok for the Mach5-3 to operate and I am always concerned with damage or loss of the iLok — no matter how much care I take. S___ Happens, right? And "they" don't let us have a back-up iLok on hand... to the best of my understanding.

So, I began to wonder: Which would require more dedicated RAM; all the virtual instruments with their MIDI tracks, etc. OR; having those "instruments" converted to Audio WAVE Files—say as many as 12 stereo tracks per Sequence Chunk?

V-Rack and MIDI tracks OR 6 to 12 Stereo/Mono Audio Tracks?

Why, should you wonder, would I want to split the one Stereo Master Mix File/track into individual instruments??? In some instances I want to replace the prerecorded tracks (mute them) to provide a space for a real human being playing an instrument. (click, the Bass instrument is muted, poof! start playing real live bassist) Yet, the arrangements and performance is still dictated by the backing tracks—when they are used. But no doubt you know where I'm going with this...

Any thoughts on any of this and if there would be a "better" approach when considering the RAM and demand on the computer? 'cause you know, if the computer isn't happy the show could be derailed.

Again, thanks to anyone who weighs in.
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mikehalloran
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Re: Can anyone offer thoughts on large DP files & RAM space?

Post by mikehalloran »

125 stereo WAV files (24/44.1)
I would not do that for live.

16bit is fine. 356K mp3 works if it doesn't bog down the CPU.
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Prime Mover
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Re: Can anyone offer thoughts on large DP files & RAM space?

Post by Prime Mover »

HOLD ON...

DP "File"... 8GB?!! That's unlikely. I have a project open right now that has 90+, 20min files in it, about 70+ sequences inside of it, and it's only 42MB. Mine should be a lot bigger than yours. Are you sure you're not talking about the entire folder? Because that sounds reasonable. But a DP file itself is extremely small, no matter how big the files it's accessing are. You do realize that the audio waveforms themselves reside in other files outside of the .dpdoc file... just making sure.

If not, and it actually says this file is 8GB, then you've got some very big problems. However, not completely unheard of. I've never seen this with DP, but there was a version of Adobe Premiere (which uses XML documents), that accidentally started writing video data into the XML file itself, which isn't ever supposed to happen. If this is the case, you should start a new project, and load the existing project into it, or perform a "Save As" of the project to a new project file, which should clean it out of any extraneous data.

Otherwise, you're talking about an 8GB project file, which isn't very large at all, the one I have open is ~45GB. Audio tracks (sans effects) are actually fairly RAM friendly, as most audio streams off the hard drive except for about a 1/4sec header at the beginning of playback. What eats up RAM are effects that use heavy sampling, like samplers (Kontakt) or Reverb/Modeler effects that use IRs (Guitar Rig and Amplitube hit the RAM hard).
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bayswater
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Re: Can anyone offer thoughts on large DP files & RAM space?

Post by bayswater »

If your question is whether to use MIDI & VI, or the rendered audio, the answer is audio. On a DP setup where you might be able to play a dozen or two MIDI/VI tracks, you would be able to play one or two hundred audio tracks.

Try it out by having Acitivty Monitor running while DP is running. Play your MIDI/VI version and look at CPU, RAM and Disk usage. Render to Audio, and repeat.
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BonDarker
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Re: Can anyone offer thoughts on large DP files & RAM space?

Post by BonDarker »

mikehalloran wrote:
125 stereo WAV files (24/44.1)
I would not do that for live.

16bit is fine. 356K mp3 works if it doesn't bog down the CPU.
Thanks for the feedback, Mike. You passed on some good advise in a previous query of mine as well. I appreciate it.
I "averaged up" as many of the files are in fact 16 bit, although some are 24 bit. But I understand your reasoning in the matter. I did not know I could run mp3 files in DP. Perhaps I'm stuck in an older mindset as I tried to do that back in DP4 or DP5 without success. Never tried it again, but I'll look into that as well. Thanks!
bayswater wrote:If your question is whether to use MIDI & VI, or the rendered audio, the answer is audio. On a DP setup where you might be able to play a dozen or two MIDI/VI tracks, you would be able to play one or two hundred audio tracks.

Try it out by having Acitivty Monitor running while DP is running. Play your MIDI/VI version and look at CPU, RAM and Disk usage. Render to Audio, and repeat.
GREAT ADVISE! I get what you are describing. The Activity Monitoring is a golden tip! Perfect way to answer my own question with factual evidence. The plus with using audio tracks is, no need for worrying about the iLok. I like that! Much appreciated suggestion.
When you say, "you would be able to play one or two hundred audio tracks" isn't that still limited by RAM or is that portion coming right off the hard drive?
------------------------------------------------------------
Prime Mover wrote:HOLD ON...

DP "File"... 8GB?!! That's unlikely. I have a project open right now that has 90+, 20min files in it, about 70+ sequences inside of it, and it's only 42MB. Mine should be a lot bigger than yours. Are you sure you're not talking about the entire folder? Because that sounds reasonable. But a DP file itself is extremely small, no matter how big the files it's accessing are. You do realize that the audio waveforms themselves reside in other files outside of the .dpdoc file... just making sure.

If not, and it actually says this file is 8GB, then you've got some very big problems. However, not completely unheard of. I've never seen this with DP, but there was a version of Adobe Premiere (which uses XML documents), that accidentally started writing video data into the XML file itself, which isn't ever supposed to happen. If this is the case, you should start a new project, and load the existing project into it, or perform a "Save As" of the project to a new project file, which should clean it out of any extraneous data.

Otherwise, you're talking about an 8GB project file, which isn't very large at all, the one I have open is ~45GB. Audio tracks (sans effects) are actually fairly RAM friendly, as most audio streams off the hard drive except for about a 1/4sec header at the beginning of playback. What eats up RAM are effects that use heavy sampling, like samplers (Kontakt) or Reverb/Modeler effects that use IRs (Guitar Rig and Amplitube hit the RAM hard).
-------------------------------------------------
Hey! Fairbanks, thanks to you as well. YES, I was referring to the total File Folder which included the Audio File folder as well as the Sequence File, etc., That's why I'm calling it 8 Gigs.

To make sure I understand what you are saying: It does not matter how many Audio Files live in the Audio Files folder of a project, because the total size of that folder does not affect RAM performance. Do I understand you correctly?
As for using effects in the project... I do not use many at all. I have an instances of DP's MW Equalizer, and TRIM to tweak and balance the one Stereo Audio Track I used per Tune Sequence Chunk. I also use a couple MW Eq instances on a couple stereo OutPuts for that one Audio Track—the backing track—because they run into different amp/speaker configurations. That's about it. And I would add, I ONLY use these "effects" on a Sequence Chunk if needed. The 125+ Master Mix Tunes, which comprise the "playlist," have been mixed at different times over a number of years so some additional balancing is needed now and then.

Eric - on a totally different note...
My last name is also Barker - AND - I am originally from Alaska. I played music at the Travelers Motel lounge, (one of Walter Hickel's early commercial real estate creations) way back in 1985/86. Although my 2 times/engagements in Fairbanks were only about 6 weeks each, I had a great time and have fond memories of Fairbanks. Very friendly town/city and some very talented players living there — ALL YEAR LONG!

A funny story I'll try to make short - In 1986, after the engagement there, while at the airport weighing in our gear with Alaska Airlines Freight to head for an engagement in South East, Ak., the freight guy told me he ended up there because his buddies back in Michigan took him out for his bachelor party, got him real drunk, then put him on a plane one way to Fairbanks without any money! He never went back! From the way he told the story, sounds like his buddies saved his bacon — that time anyway :lol:


Thanks to one and all.
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bayswater
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Re: Can anyone offer thoughts on large DP files & RAM space?

Post by bayswater »

BonDarker wrote:When you say, "you would be able to play one or two hundred audio tracks" isn't that still limited by RAM or is that portion coming right off the hard drive? [/color]
Yes, but on my old iMac (i7, 1T 7200 Drive, and external 800MB FW) and slightly newer MBP (i5, 500M SSD) both with 16G RAM, I'm able to play a test file with about 200 audio tracks, each with different audio files loaded, and a couple of dozen aux with plugins. In this test project, not all the tracks start at once -- they phase in -- so it is likely that having a load of RAM is essential. I wouldn't expect the disk would be able to deliver 200 tracks all at once.

That test would seem to be more than you're specific requirements. If it's a live application, presumably, you can mix down to some extent and keep the absolute number of audio tracks to a reasonable number.
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