Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

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mikehalloran
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Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by mikehalloran »

I have mentioned these in the past and had placed an order when I posted in this thread but hadn't received them yet.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61977

I have an electrically noisy studio (made worse in the summer by my neighbor's pool 25' away) but am not ready to gut and rewire the house (built in 1960, 2-wire aluminum with copper ends, no ground). When I first got my Equator D5s, the noise level from the power lines was horrible so I bought a couple green 75mm x 39mm x 13mm ferrite toroid cores and wrapped the ends of my power strips around them. This helped quite a bit unlike every power conditioner I tried.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J2 ... UTF8&psc=1

Plain TS patch cable got the sound from A to B but turning up the pot on my Radial MC3 passive controller, my active monitors still had all kinds of racket across the audio band (at least now I had to turn up to hear it). Using TRS balanced cables was a lot better and let me know I was on the right path but there was much room for improvement. So while looking at the above thread, I decided to try some Star Quad cables for my studio monitors and JBL sub.

Star Quad cable has 4 connectors that you terminate as if they are two. Canare was the first; Belden and Mogami make it now that any patents are long expired. I doubt that there's a noticeable performance difference no matter what marketing departments say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_quad_cable

Although one can buy the wire by the foot plus connectors from Markertek or Sweetwater, I no longer have the soldering skills I once had so I went shopping. I found many choices on Amazon but not the lengths and termination I wanted. Sweetwater does not have any ready-made. So I ordered cables custom made from Markertek.
http://audio-video-supply.markertek.com ... sitepref=1

I had a little difficulty with finding the right ones among the 4065+ choices at the above link so I called Markertek and was shown that, once you find the termination you want, there is a drop-down menu to select length (8) and color (10) for each cable. Once I saw this, online ordering was easy.
http://www.markertek.com/product/sc100x ... foot-black

My cables cost $18 each for the 6' and $19 for the 10' cable to my subwoofer. Neutrik connectors and free shipping—ok, that's good. I was called about 10 days week later and told that my order was in the que. The web site promised a 15 day turnaround and had them in 13. Hmmm... for custom cables made to order—yea, no problem there.

Compare this to highly marketed "oxygen free" (whatever that really means) boutique wire that costs $40—$700 for a 3 foot 2-wire balanced line patch cable that is no quieter than a $6 Hosea. I've A/B'd and, frankly, marketing does not trump physics.

I installed them when they arrived and could hear the difference immediately. Canare promises a 10–30 dB reduction over 2-wire depending on the frequency and that is no joke. I now have no audible induction noise as I turn the controller to full. Wow! Of course, you will only hear this in an extremely noisy environment like mine. YMMV but, for me, it's a success.
:woohoo:

There is a very slight residual motor noise in the amps but I know it's coming in through the power cables and not picked up by the audio leads–when disconnected, it's still present. That will require a level of power conditioning beginning with a complete re-wire and balanced power if needed (not possible with my current house wiring). Maybe next year. Anyway, my studio monitors are now acceptable and sound great. I couldn't be happier!

I almost never track in my studio but a couple of 25' mic cables @ $27 are on the way for those rare occasions when I do.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by labman »

Good stuff Mike. I too, am a cable believer. When we wired the mix room with all Mogami neglex 15 years ago, we were astounded at the change. Especially if you have great converters.

Enjoy it!!!
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by mikehalloran »

labman wrote:Good stuff Mike. I too, am a cable believer. When we wired the mix room with all Mogami neglex 15 years ago, we were astounded at the change. Especially if you have great converters.

Enjoy it!!!
Ahhh... I knew that Mogami had their version but I didn't know the trade name.
http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bul ... hone/quad/

Here's Belden
http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/ ... -Works.cfm

and Canare
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDispla ... tItemID=53

Markertek sells all three as does B&H Photo

This is interesting in that it suggests there is a difference among brands in noisy environments:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/applic ... hone-cable
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by rnappi »

labman wrote:Good stuff Mike. I too, am a cable believer. When we wired the mix room with all Mogami neglex 15 years ago, we were astounded at the change. Especially if you have great converters.
+1 for Mogami w2534.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by mhschmieder »

I made the mistake of getting talked into some non-star-quad cable a couple of years ago, and still wish I hadn't gone that route. I understand why the salesperson was pushing me that way (aside from what was in stock :-)), but I just find star-quad trouble-free in all environments. No cell phone issues or anything else, or problems with how straight the cable is. Canare is my go-to brand.

Yeah, I have some Mogami and other brands now too. I find Canare the most reliable in terms of soldering/connections etc., but some people prefer to grow their own (cheaper and more flexible, but I'm not allowed to have a soldering iron due to "fire hazard"). Not a huge difference these days though, now that more people are making true star-quad.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by EMRR »

Yep. Run a thousand feet of star quad and a parallel run of standard under bleachers in a sports arena and then get back to me about the difference. One just always works.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by mikehalloran »

Going to build a couple of Star Quad power cables to see if it reduces the residual noise in the ampliphiers of my D5s. With that in mind, I ordered some Canare speaker cable last night.
http://www.markertek.com/product/4s11ft ... -foot-grey

If you look at the tech specs, you'll see the AWG equvelant when the two conductors are shorted. Certainly heavy enough for AC.

4S11 is overkill for these monitors as 4S8 should work equally well given the low amp draw. If it works and I notice a noise reduction, I will rewire my Furman power conditioner with the rest of the cable I ordered.
http://www.markertek.com/product/4s8/ca ... foot-black

These will be 2-wire power cables as 3-wire is useless to me but I will post instructions for making 3-wire (2 conductor plus ground) with parts lists and suppliers if this experiment works.

I'll have them done in a couple of weeks or so and will post how it turns out.
Last edited by mikehalloran on Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by labman »

Along with our Neglex cabling, we keep canare star quad cables and mogami star quad around. It's interesting, at least to me, that they can sound so different from neglex, and often if we feel something being mic'd sounds 'cheap' or thin, just switching from neglex to star quad rounds of the thinness. And the same is true the other way. We can get much better imaging and articulation out of the neglex. It's almost like subtly switching mics out.

That being said, I would suspect having a well calibrated room makes it easier to hear and feel those things. But I remember being shocked the first time we did swap outs.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by mikehalloran »

Neglex, like the Canare and Belden Star Quad lines, is a trade name that covers a number of different cables. The capacitance and impedance changes with the diameter and gauge of the conductors. All three companies put out excellent data sheets so that the correct cable can be chosen for the application.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by HCMarkus »

You got me reading Mike.

From Wikipedia:
Star-quad cable typically provides a 10 dB to 30 dB reduction in magnetically-induced interference... It is particularly beneficial compared to twisted pair when AC magnetic field sources are in close proximity, for example a stage cable that can lay against an inline power transformer.
We're not talking a panacea here. The broader in size/distance the magnetic interference source, the less true is the above. When the magnetic interference source is a point-source, star-quad is the ticket. For RF, star-quad provides no additional benefit over ordinary shielded twisted pair.

Theory is explained well here:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/applic ... hone-cable

This study is interesting:

http://www.prosoundtraining.com/site/sy ... urce-field

Cat5 cable performed the best with respect to EMI.

One nasty source of ground hum that I've run into is equipment connected via USB cables. When a USB-connected audio device is AC powered, the potential arises for induced hum. Lifting the AC ground does not fix this, as the line connection still provides a path to ground parallel to the USB ground. I have solved this problem by cutting the USB cable ground wire and shield, thus breaking the loop and eliminating the hum.
Last edited by HCMarkus on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by labman »

mikehalloran wrote:Neglex, like the Canare and Belden Star Quad lines, is a trade name that covers a number of different cables.
I should have been more specific. We use W2549 Neglex for all our system interconnects. It's twisted pair with lower capacitance than the star quad. (Which as I say we use a bunch of too)
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by mikehalloran »

I wondered it that was the case.

I have a number of different 25' mic cables from different companies including one of the high priced boutique brands. I'm looking forward to some A/B/C/D tests when I get the three Star Quad cables I just ordered.
Last edited by mikehalloran on Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by Phil O »

Star quad is the go-to type of cable for areas that have RF interference, but I've never heard any real world reviews on low frequency noise (i.e., 60Hz) - until now. (I'm assuming that's what you're dealing with.) Thanks for that report Mike. I'll keep it in mind the next time I have some troublesome hum. :D

Phil
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by mikehalloran »

Phil O wrote:Star quad is the go-to type of cable for areas that have RF interference, but I've never heard any real world reviews on low frequency noise (i.e., 60Hz) - until now. (I'm assuming that's what you're dealing with.) Thanks for that report Mike. I'll keep it in mind the next time I have some troublesome hum. :D

Phil
That, too. It's my neighbor's AC and swimming pool motors (actually, it sounds like I'm picking up every noise in the 'hood), mostly but there's some 60 Hz in there, too.

One of the advertised advantages of Star Quad is that it is far superior in the rejection of 50/60 Hz line noise. The Belden paper goes into that in depth and claims that they are the superior solution, of course. The other link (Benchmark) explains why precise positioning of the fillers is important—it seems to be biased towards the Canare over the Mogami so glean the useful info and ignore the marketing.

Yes, it's not a panacea. I have been fighting these noise issues for 12 years in this room and am just now sharing what has worked and what hasn't.
One nasty source of ground hum that I've run into is equipment connected via USB cables. When a USB-connected audio device is AC powered, the potential arises for induced hum. Lifting the AC ground does not fix this, as the line connection still provides a path to ground parallel to the USB ground. I have solved this problem by cutting the USB cable ground wire and shield, thus breaking the loop and eliminating the hum.
Great info!

USB cables have not been an issue for me—easy to test by removing them all and cranking the audio. I do not notice a difference between those with iron beads and none but I know that they're there for a reason. I bought a pack of ferrite beads for those USB cables that don't have them and have cut shields etc. I have noticed no difference overall. This doesn't mean that someone else won't benefit, however.
This study is interesting:

http://www.prosoundtraining.com/site/sy ... urce-field

Cat5 cable performed the best with respect to EMI.
Yes, it is. I have long known about CAT 5 but never considered it for audio. Food for thought. Were I making my own or if 4S6 didn't achieve the results I needed, it would be the next solution I tried.

My son-in-law uses shielded CAT 6 when testing at Apple and says that it is a must due to all of the background noise here in the silicon valley. I am only 2 miles away from the Cupertino mother ship. Something else to consider. Canare 4S6 is doing the job so I'm good up to now.

4S11 power cables are next. I told Markertek to ship when my order is complete so it will be a couple of weeks before I get my order.
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Re: Star Quad cable. I'm a believer

Post by Phil O »

mikehalloran wrote:...it seems to be biased towards the Canare over the Mogami...
I've been using the Canare L-2T2S mic cable in my studio and have had great luck with it. Quiet, low inter-conductor capacitance, and quite flexible. My studio is pretty noise free, so I haven't tried the star quad, but I suspect the Canare stuff is all good quality.

Phil
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