Keeping snare out of tom channels?
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Keeping snare out of tom channels?
I'm recording separate tracks of drums in DP daily - trying to keep the snare out of the tom channels can be pesky...trying not to gate if possible ...what do you guys recommend ? Even if I automate or trim , the snare gets too much of the tom plug ins - Thanks
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- stubbsonic
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
I'm no expert on drum mic'ing. But I do know that the mic choice and mic position will do the most to differentiate the signal levels of the toms to the snare. You can gate the toms, but that takes a fair amount of tweaking and doesn't work especially well for soft or dynamic playing.
I guess you could use the snare track to duck the tom FX, but I have no idea if that would do what you need.
I guess you could use the snare track to duck the tom FX, but I have no idea if that would do what you need.
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- mikehalloran
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
I assume you are talking about live drums... or are you?Even if I automate or trim , the snare gets too much of the tom plug ins
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
If your close micing the toms just keep your gains down then you can EQ most the snare out it usually sits in narrow a pocket all its own.
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- Robert Randolph
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
Sidechain. Look up tutorials if you need. I can make a quick video tutorial on it later if you'd like.tommypenngotti wrote:I'm recording separate tracks of drums in DP daily - trying to keep the snare out of the tom channels can be pesky...trying not to gate if possible ...what do you guys recommend ? Even if I automate or trim , the snare gets too much of the tom plug ins - Thanks
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Have the tom channels compressed significantly when the snare hits. It works and it sounds way more natural than gating.
- mhschmieder
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
Robert, some great advice there. I'll try it next time.
I was under deadline pressure the last time I was mixing live drums, and gating was a nightmare of unintended side effects. I ended up manually editing to cut, and then fade the remaining tom hits at their tails, as the tom fills were quite rare in this particular material so that seemed the most expedient solution.
There were a couple of places where there was either a simultaneous snare hit (not usually physically possible) or within a split second while the transient of one of the toms was still strong, so I just let that go and tried to EQ the tracks differently so there wouldn't be unwanted frequency buildup, phasing, or weird stereo field placement resulting from the near-coincident hits.
I have a feeling that your suggestion on the side-chaining would work quite well there, and also that this situation would be more common in a lot of recording situations. This particular drummer doesn't use the toms much, but I've worked with other drummers who are "all about the toms".
I'd be curious about different miking techniques in this regard. I tried condensers and decided they picked up too much unwanted signal as well as not giving me the balance I want between impact and resonance (I try to limit the resonance to almost nil).
I use Audio Technica ATM 250's on the toms, angled in from the outer rim and towards the drummer a bit, maybe 2" above the head but within 1-3" range as the outer bounds of placement. Roughly 45 degree angle with the mic head about 3.5" from the rim, mounted on Equation CRM2 drum rim mounts, and some moon gel or duct tape on the top head. I never mic the bottom head, and often remove it altogether.
Floor tom is different all around, with about 3-6" distance, using ATM25 but recently switched to ATM250 for this particular drummer who tends to use the floor toms the same way as the rack toms and always as part of a long fill, so this gives a more consistent sound for the toms stem. May switch to E/V ND868 soon as I bought two for kick drum but now use a condenser on the outside kick so don't need the second ND868 anymore unless I repurpose it.
With this setup, I rarely have discernible bleed while the toms are playing, but while they aren't playing, the snare can often be up to half as loud as the lighter tom rolls. It took some isolation listening to be confident I was erasing the correct stuff, as well as checking for what bled between the tom mics (not much, surprisingly: maybe a factor of one to four at most, on the loudest hits).
This is just my experience; I didn't start close miking toms until a few years ago, so am less expert on toms miking than other parts of the kit. Someone else may chime in with deeper experience.
I was under deadline pressure the last time I was mixing live drums, and gating was a nightmare of unintended side effects. I ended up manually editing to cut, and then fade the remaining tom hits at their tails, as the tom fills were quite rare in this particular material so that seemed the most expedient solution.
There were a couple of places where there was either a simultaneous snare hit (not usually physically possible) or within a split second while the transient of one of the toms was still strong, so I just let that go and tried to EQ the tracks differently so there wouldn't be unwanted frequency buildup, phasing, or weird stereo field placement resulting from the near-coincident hits.
I have a feeling that your suggestion on the side-chaining would work quite well there, and also that this situation would be more common in a lot of recording situations. This particular drummer doesn't use the toms much, but I've worked with other drummers who are "all about the toms".
I'd be curious about different miking techniques in this regard. I tried condensers and decided they picked up too much unwanted signal as well as not giving me the balance I want between impact and resonance (I try to limit the resonance to almost nil).
I use Audio Technica ATM 250's on the toms, angled in from the outer rim and towards the drummer a bit, maybe 2" above the head but within 1-3" range as the outer bounds of placement. Roughly 45 degree angle with the mic head about 3.5" from the rim, mounted on Equation CRM2 drum rim mounts, and some moon gel or duct tape on the top head. I never mic the bottom head, and often remove it altogether.
Floor tom is different all around, with about 3-6" distance, using ATM25 but recently switched to ATM250 for this particular drummer who tends to use the floor toms the same way as the rack toms and always as part of a long fill, so this gives a more consistent sound for the toms stem. May switch to E/V ND868 soon as I bought two for kick drum but now use a condenser on the outside kick so don't need the second ND868 anymore unless I repurpose it.
With this setup, I rarely have discernible bleed while the toms are playing, but while they aren't playing, the snare can often be up to half as loud as the lighter tom rolls. It took some isolation listening to be confident I was erasing the correct stuff, as well as checking for what bled between the tom mics (not much, surprisingly: maybe a factor of one to four at most, on the loudest hits).
This is just my experience; I didn't start close miking toms until a few years ago, so am less expert on toms miking than other parts of the kit. Someone else may chime in with deeper experience.
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- Gravity Jim
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
I like bleed. It sounds alive.
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- mikehalloran
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
Gravity Jim wrote:I like bleed. It sounds alive.
Ok, cheap joke aside, I can understand the desire to be able to edit individual tom and snare hits — which isolation lets you do. Understanding that desire is not the same as ever wanting to do it. I'm in the Let It Bleed camp. To me, panned mono never replaces true stereo.
Melodyne lets you edit hits inside a drum track or even a mix if there's something egregious that absolutely needs to be corrected. The latest version has some very powerful tools for this.
As has been suggested, sidechain compression can be your best friend on problem tracks.
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- Robert Randolph
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Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
That's the #1 reason I prefer to side-chain. Gating kills the bleed except when the toms hit.Gravity Jim wrote:I like bleed. It sounds alive.
Sidechain keeps the bleed and reduces it only slightly when another mic leaks.
Bleed is love, bleed is life.
Re: Keeping snare out of tom channels?
+1
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